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The “Altar Meta”
After another game where the Altar of the Loa UT affected various plays and strategy, I think there’s even a chance that if Pirates saw competitive play on a large scale again, an “Altar Meta” could emerge based on the UT. Through a combination of treasure trading, spying/Maps of Alexandria, and extremely fast ships with explorers, one player can optimize their fleet for finding or using the Altar first. They can also put other UT’s into the distribution that result in additional sacrifices, such as Abandoned Crew and Castaway.
In the multiplayer games this year where it saw usage, neither fleet that used it the most ended up winning the game. It helped their prospects of winning, but mostly by hindering a few opponents (only 1/5 enemy fleets) rather than directly helping themselves.
However, in a 1v1 setting it becomes far more brutal, and monumental in importance. If a player can begin an “Altar Loop” where they sac crew to control the enemy, the first turn of control makes it more likely that they can then get more crew to the island to continue the mind control on subsequent turns. I would estimate that in a 1v1 game, two turns of consecutive control early in the game would be nearly impossible to come back from, simply due to the sheer amount of logistics and enemy sabotage the controlling player can pull off. Two rounds of full control would essentially amount to 5 consecutive player turns for the controller.
Building a fort on the Altar island is a high-level trolling move. It prevents the opponent(s) from docking at the island, effectively meaning the player with the fort is the only one that can use the Altar. When combined with the potential to build forts extremely early in the game, this could be a devastating double whammy for an opponent – not only are they locked out of any Altar shenanigans, the other gold on the island gets protected and the fort player has bought themselves likely another turn or two of Altar “security” they can use to ferry sacrifices to the island while the fort soaks up hits.
Multiplayer introduces additional Altar dynamics that can make for a confusing strategic landscape. If eliminated players are skipped, it changes which player the Altar would grant control over. This could affect alliances, suicide plays, and players racing to the Altar as fast as possible. The Altar can be used as a weapon for making threats against other players, such as “do what we say or we’ll run your ships into reefs”.
However, perhaps recent examples of Altar usage not resulting in wins should be a cautionary tale. Getting tunnel vision on using the Altar might distract a player from getting enough gold to win, or cause them to control a player that was not contending in the first place.
Is terrain applied to docking location after Message in a Bottle is triggered? (I assume it would be on a case by case basis whether or not the terrain rules say “touches” vs. “moves over”)
Is PotC Dead Man’s Chest automatically unloaded to an HI if you are stating not to use it for any gold? (ex: to keep it on your ship and use it at a later time, or it must be unloaded for 0 gold)
Are outriggers considered part of the bow for movement/etc purposes? (Catamarans/canoes/etc)
Can you trigger the Mines UT when a ship already within S starts moving? (regardless of which direction it is going, such as away from the ship with Mines)
Can a ship still use S-Board if Mines causes it to become derelict? Can the same ship still shoot before that last cannon gets eliminated by Mines? For clarity, I assume the wording in the UT “end of her move” means her move action, not move segment?
Do you skip an eliminated player’s turn with Altar of the Loa if all they have left in play is a fort?
Can native canoes redock at a wild island that was S-explored on the first turn of a game to take gold from it as a free action? (I assume yes because they’re given move actions, not explore actions)
If the below theoretically happened: is the flotilla’s movement (straight ahead with the St. Joan) blocked by the tentacle? (knowing that the monster cannot pin the flotilla)
Raptor Maw alert (also a Lizard’s Sting and some other rare stuff)
Does a forfeit affect existing gold scores? For example, if a player forfeits, does their gold count, or does it automatically become 0? (asking partly since someone could have an “emergency” and clear their fleet out and leave the venue, at which point they can’t claim to win just because they have more gold at the time)
A great addition to this topic is The Alignment System. 🙂
Lots of good points for discussion – this could almost be a thread entirely on its own.
I thought about it, but realized how much of it applies to this thread’s topics and wanted to keep it here.
Thanks for your extended answers, I always love hearing your perspective on these topics.
I agree with you about some luck in the game being a good thing for sure. My lesson learned on that is more in regards to caring too much about the result when one d6 roll or playing the game to proper completion would have swung the winner. When the standings feel flawed as a result, I simply enjoy the game a bit less. On one hand maybe I should get into a less luck-dependent game, but I think I’d rather just separate some of the recent games I’ve played from the more competitive 1v1 standard games I miss.
@CrazyIvan: Thanks for your input!I think it would take quite a lot of work to make the game “fair” at this point in a competitive sense.
Probably a difference in perspective, but I think fairness is less important at the competitive level, because competition inherently means trying to gain some kind of advantage (whether fair or not) over the opposition.
From a different angle, I see your point in terms of making a competitive environment fair for a lot of people, especially newer players or people who have small collections lacking competitive game pieces.
Lots of thoughts and reflections on the weekend marathon of multiplayer games. Would rather post it than have it sit in my mind haha. Curious if you have any thoughts, or opinions based on your own experiences. None of it is a condemnation of any of the people I played with; I definitely consider all of them my friends. I think bringing up these topics could further some interesting discussions about the game. 😀
Questions
Are ban lists and house rules just a knee-jerk reaction to something that players see as unfair, OP, broken, or “unfun”? Have adequate counters been considered, and if so, are they too much of a chore to include to justify not banning/house ruling things?In a game called “Pirates”, how justified is it to bring external morality into the game? Should players get upset when they lose by legal combos? In a brutal game like this (crew killed, ships captured/stolen, plans ruined in round 1, etc), should players be annoyed with each other, or at the game itself? (or their own gameplay/fleet choices?)
Is the pursuit of winning honorable regardless of the means used to obtain it? I think for players that can separate the game from real life, I would say yes. Of course, if the objective is simply fun and to keep your game group happy, you could argue that the pursuit of winning takes a backseat and the competitive nature of the game (that some players find more fun than others) gets watered down in the pursuit of a (likely subjective) ethical standard.
Should implied moral judgment be applied more to specific aspects of the game than others? For example, being “ethical” (again, at least partially subjective in this case) in fleet building but then “evil” during gameplay? (or vice versa/etc. Ex: bribing a player before the game with a game piece they don’t have, or making pre-game alliances/etc.)
Is it wrong to use game pieces that are not on a ban list if players deem them “bad”? (especially during/after their usage in the game vs. before starting play)
If one player wants to continue playing but another doesn’t, should the person who leaves the game be considered a forfeit regardless of their actual gold score at the end of the game?
Is it wrong to bring grievances from outside the game into the game?
What is the best way to establish “last round”? (ex: game with a time limit) Ex: someone has to leave by 7pm. All players need an equal number of turns, AND all players need advance notice of when the last round starts so they know if they need to take their ships out of fog banks/etc to have the gold count. Solution? 20 minutes (?) before the time deadline, regardless of which player is the current player, all players understand that when the next round begins, it will be the last round of the game.
Lessons I Learned:
-I hate “asterisks” (game not finished properly/etc) to the point where I need to stop playing games where they might happen. However, I realize this is a symptom of me sometimes caring too much about winning and not just enjoying the game for what it is. I suppose that this year especially, my enjoyment of the game is tied to the game being played properly by the rules. I think this is driven by my agony over the “what ifs” that simply don’t matter as much (if even applicable) if the game is played to true completion.
-Big multiplayer games are a bit overrated. Lots of time in between player turns. More players means more risk that someone will have some emergency or time constraint where they suddenly have to leave. Often not enough time to play the game out before a meal interruption occurs (playing at someone’s house can alleviate this). Games with 6+ players at 60 or more points should generally be the only game scheduled for that day.
-I personally find the game less enjoyable and less rewarding when players don’t want to play things out per the normal endgame rules. (ex: “calling” it) I recognize that real life factors sometimes have to play a role, but I think my love for the game overrides most of those. (whereas it doesn’t for many other players, which is fine and more normal than me haha)
-So much luck involved that I can’t wrap my ego/energy up in winning. (ex: one treasure coin being on a different island during the coin distribution to islands could change the winner, let alone dozens of other luck-based things that happen during the game)
-I think it would be useful to establish different “game modes” of Pirates for the community, such as Unlimited (100% normal rules), “Fair Seas” (ban list to eliminate “fun killers”/unfair game pieces, and house rules to enhance fairness, address rule annoyances, and possibly shore up underpowered game pieces), and maybe more. This is something I plan to work on.The BR’s from the epic 2022 Pirates CSG Weekend Marathon:
Epic Scale at Cal Anderson Park in Seattle
Wild Game with Storms and Mysterious Islands – 4×80 Weekend Marathon Finale (October 16th, 2022)
Thanks again to all who played!
Can you tow a tangled derelict out of a sargasso sea?
Can a ship shoot after freeing itself from a sargasso sea? (by extension, is “its action for the turn” a move action?)
Does Parley last for the duration of the attacker’s turn or until the owner of Parley starts their turn? (or a whole round)
Does a roll of 5 with the Fear keyword affect abilities for just the Fear owner’s turn, or the whole round?
If a crew such as Commodore Matthew Perry (American 0LR +5) is on a shipwreck, I assume that only American ships could load him because he can’t be assigned to ships of other nationalities? If so and it was not the original owner, would it be considered a captured crew or just a free crew?
For spying abilities (such as “Once per turn, this ship may look at one face-down cargo on any ship”), is it every player turn or just on that player’s active turn? (same wording as Canceller so players voted to have it apply to every player turn in last night’s 6 player game)
If a native canoe gets stuck in a sargasso sea, is it stuck forever because it cannot roll higher than a 6 or not stuck at all because the sargasso sea rules refer to masts which the canoes don’t have?
I saw your post over on BGG about that too. That looks like just a side effect of paraphrasing things to save space. It’s fine for the vast majority of the time, but loses the nuance that covers the remainder.
I’ve looked through the Winning the Game section of the Complete Game rules for all the sets and cannot find an “eliminated players” endgame condition. Was it specifically added to The Pirate Code back in the day in order to prevent “simulation” players who wreck an opponent and then “get the rest of the gold”?
I checked the older versions of the Code that you’ve uploaded to BGG but found no text differences relevant to this topic. Wondering if it originated in an older FAQ or a specific Multiplayer Rules document perhaps. For example, where does the current Code ruling come from? And if it originates from before any of the sets came out, why didn’t it make it into the Complete Game rules for that set and all afterwards? (which are biased towards 1v1 games, but the immediate vs. start of turn timing matters regardless of player count)
The reason I’m so curious is because I’ve been playing by the “immediate” version for years now, and want to know why that’s wrong/where it came from. The Combined Set Rules are great but this is a considerably important discrepancy (anything in the Endgame rules is a big deal), especially since it has probably affected the win/loss outcome of at least a few games I’ve been involved in. (assuming of course)
With only two players, it doesn’t end until the eliminated player would start their own turn.
With more players, it ends at the start of any player’s turn after the minimum number of players have been eliminated. It doesn’t have to be the start of an eliminated player’s turn.
Functionally it still amounts to almost the same thing. The current/active player still gets to finish their own turn before the game would actually end; it doesn’t end the instant enough other players have been eliminated.
Makes sense! Thanks for all the answers lately, it’s been very helpful.
I think part of the confusion stems from the Combined Set rules, which state “The game ends immediately…”, which seems to contradict what the Code says.
On a related note, for win condition #3 on page 14, can the phrase “a player” mean the opposing player, or does every “his/her/player” reference in that sentence specifically reference the active player’s turn and no opponents?
That applies only to the current/active player’s own turn. If some other player gets wiped out in between, the endgame condition doesn’t trigger until their turn starts.
Just to make sure I understand: For example, in a 7 player game where 4 players must be “eliminated” to trigger the “half or more” rule. Players 5-7 are already out. Another round starts, and Player 1 eliminates Player 4. Players 2 and 3 then take their full turns, and the game doesn’t end until Player 4’s next “turn” comes around?
Some fort wording minutiae:
“-An island with a fort is still considered a wild island for the purposes of all other abilities and effects.”
“-If treasure remains on wild islands but cannot be loaded by any player due to an ability or some other effect, that gold is no longer considered “available” and will not prevent this end condition.”
My understanding is that fort gold is available gold, but this seems to contradict that because ships cannot dock at or explore islands that have opposing forts on them. Is it just a quirk of how the rules or Code are worded?
I assume you must build sea creatures in a configuration that matches their deckplate cannons? For example, Calim has two 2S segments and three 4S’s. They can physically be placed so that you could have a 2S in slots 1 and 4 or 2 and 5 (looking top down left to right/etc), but is this illegal?
If PotC Davy Jones declares “no target” for a previously activated kraken, does that still use the ship’s action for the turn?
Is the ship’s action for the turn used if the targeting ability is used and then cancelled after someone declares a target? (the kraken benefit is lost either way, but I assume DJ’s ship gets the action back?)
If a ghostly ship is moved by an outside force into a fog bank, does the resetting of Ghost Ship (since it doesn’t seem to be a “continuously active” ability) cause the ship to become lost in the fog bank before the controlling player can “ghost” out of it and ignore the fog bank?
Regarding the Davy Jones’ Key UT: “Swap Davy Jones’ Key with one face-down treasure on any other wild island.”
-I assume it’s revealed when found? Or can you do a covert swap? Is it placed face down on the island it gets put on?
-If it’s the last coin in play and there is no swap to be made, is it loaded onto the ship?
-What happens if the final two coins in play are both Keys? Whenever one is found, it gets swapped back and forth with the other in a loop.
Can you start the game with ships at your home island touching?
What happens if an oared ship is docked at a player’s home island such that no ship can touch its bow? Is the ship uncaptureable? (could see this as a niche “stalemate” issue with Wolves in play, no way to eliminate it, and no way for one player to eliminate the other if their last ship cannot be captured/sunk)
In a multiplayer game, which opponent chooses the tied island for the Message in a Bottle UT? (“Immediately dock this ship at the wild island with the fewest treasure coins on it. If there is a tie, your opponent chooses which tied island this ship docks at.”)
If you copy Sea Dragon to a Titan, can the Titan make swoop attacks? The Sea Dragon keyword mentions “base”, which a Titan might not have (unless it would be considered where it touches the water for copying purposes).
In addition, if you copied Sea Dragon to a ship, would that then be considered a sea creature and not be able to have crew assigned to it?
Another clarification: for the multiplayer endgame rules regarding “half or more players” can’t give future move actions, I assume you’d round up in a game with an odd number of players? (ex: in a 9 player game, 5 would have to be eliminated for it to end because rounding down to 4 from 4.5 would violate the “or more” intention)
When is the determination made on whether or not Mysterious Island effects will be used? Based on the Setup rules it seems it would be decided between placing islands and placing terrain, but before choosing home islands.
Ahoy mateys!
Three players are flying up from Los Angeles to join the PNW Pirates for a weekend of piratey gaming! We are currently expecting about 6 players per game! We will be playing at least 3-4 games of Pirates CSG at Mox Boarding House in Bellevue. We might also play a game of Epic Scale Pirates (made by Captain Redgoat of PDXYAR in Portland Oregon) at Cal Anderson Park. Feel free to attend as many or as few games as you’d like! (more details to come in the linked doc below)
Build totals will be 80, 120, and 60, with other build totals possible as well if we have time for more games. The house rules and short ban list are located in the document below, which will be updated continuously as the dates approach!
Seattle Pirates House Rules and Game Ideas
Let me know if you’d like to attend so I can add you to our messenger group chat! Feel free to also reach out to me on the Pirates CSG Discord.
https://www.facebook.com/events/1315182882642412/
https://www.meetup.com/seattle-board-games/events/288745708/Just to clarify, when placing terrain, players can pick from the pool of what has been contributed by all players, correct? Or do they have to place their own, or randomly as determined by d6 roll or RNG? (Random Number Generator)
If you use terrain, players should agree on the number of terrain pieces that will be used; we recommend that players place the same number of terrain pieces, in the same order that they placed islands.
I think Ballast would alter the game, for better or worse. A lot of ships would get it and eliminate it immediately to get the whole +S for the game, acting as a stackable helmsman which when paired would give any ship +S+S to their base move. By eliminating it before moving, you could also use the free transfer rules while docked at your home island to bring on another crew into the cargo space it doesn’t occupy after elimination. Also, is there a reason you made it a crew and not equipment? (ballast as… bodies?)
Wizkids generally underpriced the gold bonus abilities, I would estimate +3 gold could be worth 5-7 points. To avoid potential future confusion I would put any custom keywords in every post they are applicable to, or link a doc/spreadsheet with all of them in the same area.
I’d probably put Zenith at 18-19 points for playtesting.
Joli Rouge is a rather fascinating potential “all or nothing” ship. I would change the 1-3 result to “this ship cannot be given any actions this turn”.
Neat customs overall, thanks for sharing!
Something I thought of while making some custom ship stats was, so if a named crew with the cargo master keyword is linked to a ship, does that mean that the cargo hold of the ship would be expanded by one? the ability text of cargo master states that a crew with this keyword take up no cargo space on the ship it is placed and the linking makes an extra cargo space.
Yes, the ship would get +2 cargo spaces overall as long as the CM is of the same nationality as the ship, one from the link and one from the ability.
And also with the treasure ship keyword it makes all crew take up no cargo space, and with Admiral Zheng He and The Headhunter they are linked to their respective Baochuan and Guichuan. That means they gain an extra cargo with the linking and they take up none because of treasure ship.
Is that right?
Correct!
