Questions About Game Rules & The Pirate Code

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  • #17971
    Woelf
    Moderator

    Can gold from the Gold Capture ability be used to build a fort?

    No.  The captured crew gains a gold value, but doesn’t become treasure.  Forts need (non-unique) treasure specifically.

    If a player uses the Altar of the Loa UT to force an opponent’s ship to explore an island and the Castaway UT is found, I assume that the Altar user chooses which crew is brought into the game based on this line from the Code? (because the Castaway ability only even happens because of the explore action itself)

    Even though the explore action is what causes it to be revealed, Castaway’s ability still falls under the same category as other abilities where the owner gets to pick what they get, similar to choosing what they lose if their ship loses a boarding action while under the effect.

    The part about the Altar user getting to choose applies to things like a Captain, where that player gets to pick the targets, or whether or not to use the ability of a face up Helmsman.

    (0LR+5 discussion)

    It’s mostly going to depend on the group, but like Ben said, players generally just build a 65 (or whatever +5) point fleet and toss the extras in right away without thinking about it much.    It gets a little trickier when players purposely set aside a few different options ahead of time depending on what they might see in the opposing fleet(s), but even then, the choice of which specific option to pick is usually pretty obvious, so having everyone do that phase simultaneously is going to work perfectly fine the vast majority of the time.

    Doing it in turn order is only necessary if players get into one of those annoying “If you add that, I’m going to add this!” arguments, or when you need a highly-rigid timing structure for a tournament game or something along those lines.

    If a player has both the Hoard ability and “eliminate all of the other ship’s crew” boarding Massacre ability on the same ship and wins a boarding party, can they steal all treasure and eliminate all the enemy crew?  (this is distinct from the RtSS Headhunter, who gives an either/or choice)

    Unless something else prevents one or the other, you can use both abilities in full during a single boarding.

    #18004
    Captain Vendari
    Participant

    Doing it in turn order is only necessary if players get into one of those annoying “If you add that, I’m going to add this!” arguments, or when you need a highly-rigid timing structure for a tournament game or something along those lines.

    That makes sense. I thought it might have had to do with ability timings, but I can’t think of anything in the game that actually would require such specific timing. Which is a good segue into another couple of questions I have:

    The Comprehensive Tournament rules state that a player’s fleet must remain the same throughout the competition (Section 1.3.1 Substituting Game Pieces). Is 0LR+5 an exception to this, since the pieces are brought in during set up? Considering crew like Amos who can bring in crew from outside the game during play, I imagine this might be a similar case where the pieces are considered temporary.

    Additionally, does this apply to a player’s treasure contribution, or just the fleet itself?

    Not specifically a rules question, but what’s the best way to limit what players might have available for these temporary bring-ins? Other games like Magic have a 15 card side deck that, in addition to being able to swap out cards between games in a match, also act as legal targets for “bring in from out of play” effects. But Pirates doesn’t have anything like that, so what’s to limit a player from bringing an entire collection to have every option available? Or is that even an issue that warrants consideration?

    #18005
    Woelf
    Moderator

    <p style=”border: 0px; font-family: ‘Helvetica Neue’, Helvetica, Arial, ‘Lucida Grande’, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; margin: 1em 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #000000;”>The Comprehensive Tournament rules state that a player’s fleet must remain the same throughout the competition (Section 1.3.1 Substituting Game Pieces). Is 0LR+5 an exception to this, since the pieces are brought in during set up? Considering crew like Amos who can bring in crew from outside the game during play, I imagine this might be a similar case where the pieces are considered temporary.</p>

    The bonus 5 points are not considered part of your main fleet, so those can be varied from one game to the next in a tournament.   The base 40/60/etc. part of the fleet has to stay the same throughout.

    <p style=”border: 0px; font-family: ‘Helvetica Neue’, Helvetica, Arial, ‘Lucida Grande’, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; margin: 1em 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #000000;”>Additionally, does this apply to a player’s treasure contribution, or just the fleet itself?</p>

    If it’s not specifically mentioned, it can be changed, but that can also be up to the discretion of the person running the event.

    <p style=”border: 0px; font-family: ‘Helvetica Neue’, Helvetica, Arial, ‘Lucida Grande’, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; margin: 1em 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #000000;”>Not specifically a rules question, but what’s the best way to limit what players might have available for these temporary bring-ins? Other games like Magic have a 15 card side deck that, in addition to being able to swap out cards between games in a match, also act as legal targets for “bring in from out of play” effects. But Pirates doesn’t have anything like that, so what’s to limit a player from bringing an entire collection to have every option available? Or is that even an issue that warrants consideration?</p>

    There’s technically no limit, but it’s very much a discretionary thing, “within reason.”   Like any other variable thing in a tournament or elsewhere, if it becomes a problem, it can be severely limited or shut down entirely.

    Maybe a good option would be to give each player up to 30 seconds to decide what to do with their bonus points.  If they haven’t filled up all 5 points by then, anything left is lost.

    #18013
    Ben
    Keymaster

    For the purposes of measuring the “S away from home island” for the Mercenary keyword, is that measured from a point on the ship that touches the water (playing surface), or from any point on the ship?  In a recent game Randy and I noticed that it could give Celtic Fury a bigger jump if measuring from the edge of the aftermost stern deck rather than at the waterline.

    If you can measure from any point on the ship, is that measured from the height of that part of the ship to the edge of the island’s height, or just an over-the-top measurement that doesn’t factor in the height differential between the ship part and the height of the home island?

    Do you recall if there was ever a defined “width” of a cannon shot for the purposes of measuring lines of fire in tight spaces?  A few years ago Spence brought up that it should probably be the ~1mm width of a deckplate card since that’s the default measuring device for cannon arcs (which makes a lot of sense to me).

    I know these questions are irrelevant in 99% of games, but hopefully some of them break new ground.  It’s getting to the point where I’ve played so much that the really nitty gritty tiny details get exposed now that so many other (sometimes more basic/consequential) questions have been answered!

    #18015
    Captain Vendari
    Participant

    For the purposes of measuring the “S away from home island” for the Mercenary keyword, is that measured from a point on the ship that touches the water (playing surface), or from any point on the ship? In a recent game Randy and I noticed that it could give Celtic Fury a bigger jump if measuring from the edge of the aftermost stern deck rather than at the waterline.

    If you can measure from any point on the ship, is that measured from the height of that part of the ship to the edge of the island’s height, or just an over-the-top measurement that doesn’t factor in the height differential between the ship part and the height of the home island?

    I believe it would from any point on the ship as seen from directly above. Pirates is essentially a 2D game played with 3D models.

    Do you recall if there was ever a defined “width” of a cannon shot for the purposes of measuring lines of fire in tight spaces? A few years ago Spence brought up that it should probably be the ~1mm width of a deckplate card since that’s the default measuring device for cannon arcs (which makes a lot of sense to me).

    I’ll let Woelf answer this one, but I don’t see why the width of LoS would matter unless you’re trying to thread a needle between two obstacles, and even then if it’s that tight you might as well roll off if you can’t agree there is a clear LoS.

    #18018
    Woelf
    Moderator

    For the purposes of measuring the “S away from home island” for the Mercenary keyword, is that measured from a point on the ship that touches the water (playing surface), or from any point on the ship? In a recent game Randy and I noticed that it could give Celtic Fury a bigger jump if measuring from the edge of the aftermost stern deck rather than at the waterline.

    If you can measure from any point on the ship, is that measured from the height of that part of the ship to the edge of the island’s height, or just an over-the-top measurement that doesn’t factor in the height differential between the ship part and the height of the home island?

    I believe it would from any point on the ship as seen from directly above. Pirates is essentially a 2D game played with 3D models.

    Exactly this.   You’d measure the same way as if you were using a canceller or anything else with a range to it.

    The only reason movement is measured from the point where the ship’s bow touches the water is because that’s much more consistent and easily-defined point than from a random object floating half an inch above the table.

    Do you recall if there was ever a defined “width” of a cannon shot for the purposes of measuring lines of fire in tight spaces? A few years ago Spence brought up that it should probably be the ~1mm width of a deckplate card since that’s the default measuring device for cannon arcs (which makes a lot of sense to me).

    I’ll let Woelf answer this one, but I don’t see why the width of LoS would matter unless you’re trying to thread a needle between two obstacles, and even then if it’s that tight you might as well roll off if you can’t agree there is a clear LoS.

    The game was never designed for anywhere near that degree of precision, but for the sake of argument, the thickness of a card should be more than enough to draw a line.

    #18030
    Ben
    Keymaster

    Pretty sure I’ve asked this but not seeing it via the forum search: If you start your turn on a sargasso sea but you didn’t get stuck last turn, do you have to roll since you’re sailing over it?  Or would you only roll if you contact a NEW sargasso sea during that action?

    You don’t get stuck (or have to roll) immediately if you start on it, but when you move if any part of the ship is still touching the terrain after any segment, you will have to roll again.

    I assume that’s the case for reefs as well?  For example, if I start a move action on a reef with S+S speed, and after the first segment the ship is still touching the reef – it has to roll for effect/take damage again, even if it doesn’t end the move action on the reef?

    I’m pretty sure you said in the past that when a ship is sunk in a multiplayer game, any treasure aboard that gets removed from the game remains a secret to the other players (unless the player chooses to say/reveal what it is I suppose).  Is that also the case when random treasures are eliminated from the game, such as via the Isle of Fire MI’s?  For the Isle of Fire MI’s specifically, would the player whose roll eliminates the treasure be able to check what coin it is, or must it remain hidden to all players? (even those whose turn it is)

    Does the Explore Action order of operations on page 62 of the Code always take precedence over Unique Treasure ability text?

    Ex: I explore an island and find Pirate Globe, Pirata Codex, and Savage Natives. I want to apply them in that order, so all treasure is flipped up and then all UT’s are wiped out, including Savage Natives before the Savage Natives can take effect.  However, Savage Natives says “when revealed”, and seems to imply that you cannot load it.  All 3 say “when revealed” so I suppose it wouldn’t matter and the explorer would still get to choose the order they’re applied in.  I suppose my question is if there are any UT’s in the game that force you to apply their effects before you can do step 7 and load face up UT’s? (maybe Wolves?)

    ~~~~~

    Gold Capture: If this ship wins a boarding party, she may capture the crew with the highest point cost instead of eliminating it. A captured crew becomes cargo worth its point cost in gold when unloaded at your home island.

    What happens if a Gold Capture crew steals a Marine, and then that ship gets wrecked on a reef with both crew still aboard?  For example, if a player other than the original owner is able to explore the wreck with a ship capable of using the Gold Capture ability (such as loading Bonny Peel onto an opposing Pirate ship), does it matter which order in which they load the crew?  Theoretically if they load the Gold Capture crew first and the Marine afterwards, they can unload the Marine at home for a gold payout?  Perhaps the order doesn’t matter, unless loading the Marine first causes it to revert to being a full Marine before the Gold Capture ability can be applied.

    Can you unload crew captured via Gold Capture at a wild island?

    If the original Gold Capture crew (such as Bonny Peel) is eliminated or removed from the game when there are captives still aboard, are those captives automatically unloaded at your home island when docking there, or can you choose to keep them aboard because they’re generic cargo?  If you had another Gold Capture crew such as Blackbeard at your home island when docking in this manner, could you load Blackbeard via the free transfer rules and then automatically unload the captives for a payout, or would you have to redock at the HI or explore it in order to unload the captives? (similar to how gold is only automatically unloaded upon docking, not if transferred to a ship already docked at home)

    -If a captured crew is taken or stolen by an opponent other than the original owner, or this ability is cancelled, eliminated, turned facedown, or removed from this ship, the previously captured crew remain generic cargo, cannot use any abilities, and will not count against the ship’s point or cargo limits. They will be worth zero gold when unloaded, unless some source of this ability is also present and active (not cancelled) on the ship.

    #18032
    Woelf
    Moderator

    I assume that’s the case for reefs as well?  For example, if I start a move action on a reef with S+S speed, and after the first segment the ship is still touching the reef – it has to roll for effect/take damage again, even if it doesn’t end the move action on the reef?

    You only roll for the effect once per move action.  If you start on it you won’t have to roll initially, but the first segment that ends on it will trigger the effect normally.

    I’m pretty sure you said in the past that when a ship is sunk in a multiplayer game, any treasure aboard that gets removed from the game remains a secret to the other players (unless the player chooses to say/reveal what it is I suppose).  Is that also the case when random treasures are eliminated from the game, such as via the Isle of Fire MI’s?  For the Isle of Fire MI’s specifically, would the player whose roll eliminates the treasure be able to check what coin it is, or must it remain hidden to all players? (even those whose turn it is)

    I don’t think it’s specified one way or the other if the removed treasure is revealed, but because the “more than half” rule isn’t used, there’s no real need to reveal it.   Unless something else forces it, or the group/person running the event decides otherwise, it’s safe to assume it does not get revealed.

    Does the Explore Action order of operations on page 62 of the Code always take precedence over Unique Treasure ability text?

    Ex: I explore an island and find Pirate Globe, Pirata Codex, and Savage Natives. I want to apply them in that order, so all treasure is flipped up and then all UT’s are wiped out, including Savage Natives before the Savage Natives can take effect.  However, Savage Natives says “when revealed”, and seems to imply that you cannot load it.  All 3 say “when revealed” so I suppose it wouldn’t matter and the explorer would still get to choose the order they’re applied in.  I suppose my question is if there are any UT’s in the game that force you to apply their effects before you can do step 7 and load face up UT’s? (maybe Wolves?)

    The interactions between them mostly depend on the exact wording used for their abilities, but if there’s nothing obvious indicating that a certain one goes before another, the player exploring can choose the order they apply.

    Wolves won’t prevent the majority of UT effects from applying, but if there is a face up UT that’s legal to unload at a wild island, Wolves would force you to leave that behind along with any non-unique treasure.

    Gold Capture: If this ship wins a boarding party, she may capture the crew with the highest point cost instead of eliminating it. A captured crew becomes cargo worth its point cost in gold when unloaded at your home island.

    What happens if a Gold Capture crew steals a Marine, and then that ship gets wrecked on a reef with both crew still aboard?  For example, if a player other than the original owner is able to explore the wreck with a ship capable of using the Gold Capture ability (such as loading Bonny Peel onto an opposing Pirate ship), does it matter which order in which they load the crew?  Theoretically if they load the Gold Capture crew first and the Marine afterwards, they can unload the Marine at home for a gold payout?  Perhaps the order doesn’t matter, unless loading the Marine first causes it to revert to being a full Marine before the Gold Capture ability can be applied.

    It only reverts back to being a Marine if picked up by the original owner, and that happens automatically even if the original owner has their own source of the same capture ability (or takes this one first).   They can’t choose to leave it as cargo if they load it.

    If a third player picks up the captured Marine along with the Capture crew (loaded in any order) they could take both home and unload the Marine for the gold value.

    Can you unload crew captured via Gold Capture at a wild island?

    Yes.  They remain as captive cargo, but have no value or meaningful use to anyone except the original owner or someone with a gold capture ability.

    If the original Gold Capture crew (such as Bonny Peel) is eliminated or removed from the game when there are captives still aboard, are those captives automatically unloaded at your home island when docking there, or can you choose to keep them aboard because they’re generic cargo?  If you had another Gold Capture crew such as Blackbeard at your home island when docking in this manner, could you load Blackbeard via the free transfer rules and then automatically unload the captives for a payout, or would you have to redock at the HI or explore it in order to unload the captives? (similar to how gold is only automatically unloaded upon docking, not if transferred to a ship already docked at home)

    They don’t automatically unload in either situation.  As you suggested, it works the same as transferring normal treasure to a ship already docked at its home island.  You’ll need another action (move->dock, or explore) to unload it.

    #18033
    Ben
    Keymaster

    I don’t think it’s specified one way or the other if the removed treasure is revealed, but because the “more than half” rule isn’t used, there’s no real need to reveal it.   Unless something else forces it, or the group/person running the event decides otherwise, it’s safe to assume it does not get revealed.

    In that case, I assume that treasure eliminated via an Isle of Fire would have to be revealed in a 1v1 standard game?

    I would think it still doesn’t get revealed, because since abilities that add to the original 30 gold don’t change the requirements of the more than half rule (16 gold), it seems like subtractions from the total amount of starting gold would also not affect the required total of 16+.  Eliminating treasure just makes that endgame condition less likely (or impossible if a lot of coins are eliminated), so the game is more likely to end with all treasure unloaded to HI’s or no future move actions.

    #18037
    Woelf
    Moderator

    In that case, I assume that treasure eliminated via an Isle of Fire would have to be revealed in a 1v1 standard game?

    I would think it still doesn’t get revealed, because since abilities that add to the original 30 gold don’t change the requirements of the more than half rule (16 gold), it seems like subtractions from the total amount of starting gold would also not affect the required total of 16+.  Eliminating treasure just makes that endgame condition less likely (or impossible if a lot of coins are eliminated), so the game is more likely to end with all treasure unloaded to HI’s or no future move actions.

    There’s no specific trigger to reveal treasure when it’s removed or eliminated by some method other than sinking a ship (in order to split it).

    In a casual 1 vs 1 game it’s probably still a good idea to reveal it, just so both players will be aware if the “more than half” condition has become impossible for anyone to reach, forcing them to rely on one of the other endgame conditions instead.

     

    Adding to or subtracting from the actual total amount of gold in play never changes the target value.  That remains fixed in place based on what the game started with.

    #18044
    Ben
    Keymaster

    Mysterious Island #16: 5-6: After this ship explores this island, swap any number of treasure coins taken with an equal number of treasure coins chosen randomly from other wild islands.

    This implies that the treasure you trade for must be loaded.  What happens if you receive a UT that can’t be loaded, such as Wolves?  I assume it would apply to any treasure received via the swap, and not to the treasures you took originally and didn’t swap? (because it occurs after exploring, and after step 8 – “Apply the effects of all revealed unique treasures.”)

    Ex: Exploring ship takes 3 coins and wants to swap the final one.  She gets Wolves in return – are the first 3 exempt from the effects of Wolves? (or another UT such as Bloody Gold)

    #18045
    Captain Vendari
    Participant

    MI #7:
    1-2: Randomly move one treasure from this island to another wild island.
    3-4: No effect.
    5-6: After exploring this island, place a treasure coin from your collection with value equal to or less than one you took on the island.

    What is meant by “one you took”? I think it to refers to a coin loaded by the ship during the explore action and doesn’t seem like it can be used with UPS and other treasure trading abilities, because traded treasures are not actually being taken. Additionally, the rules for Explore action uses the word “take”, so I imagine the wording of this effect is specifically referring to the rules of the action.

    #18048
    Woelf
    Moderator

    This implies that the treasure you trade for must be loaded.  What happens if you receive a UT that can’t be loaded, such as Wolves?  I assume it would apply to any treasure received via the swap, and not to the treasures you took originally and didn’t swap? (because it occurs after exploring, and after step 8 – “Apply the effects of all revealed unique treasures.”)

    The UTs are treated as if they were on the island before you did any swapping.  It does mess with the timing a bit, but in the case of something like Wolves, that could force you to put back others that you technically just loaded.

    #18049
    Woelf
    Moderator

    MI #7:
    1-2: Randomly move one treasure from this island to another wild island.
    3-4: No effect.
    5-6: After exploring this island, place a treasure coin from your collection with value equal to or less than one you took on the island.

    What is meant by “one you took”? I think it to refers to a coin loaded by the ship during the explore action and doesn’t seem like it can be used with UPS and other treasure trading abilities, because traded treasures are not actually being taken. Additionally, the rules for Explore action uses the word “take”, so I imagine the wording of this effect is specifically referring to the rules of the action.

    It’s based on whatever non-unique treasures your ship loaded and still had on board when the explore action ended, whether they came from the island originally or were swapped in by some other ability during the action.  Treasures sent elsewhere and not loaded by the ship doing the exploring do not count toward the effect.

    #18050
    Ben
    Keymaster

    I assume you cannot swap a 0-point crew via the CJS/UPS ability because such a crew (like Robinson) can never be on an island?  It says so explicitly for the 0LR +5 crew but not the 0-point reducers (or 0LR Rerollers), so I wanted to make sure. I just can’t find anything that says that they cannot be unloaded to an island.

    CJS: When this ship is given an explore action, you can swap a treasure on the wild island a crew on any friendly ship.

    Pirate Code: If the treasure cannot be loaded onto the ship or the crew cannot be unloaded due to an ability, effect, or any other reason, the swap cannot be made.

    Complete Game Rules: A crew with a point cost of 0 can be assigned only to a ship that shares its nationality.

    -This limits what ships the crew can be assigned to, but since I don’t think you ever “assign” crew to an island, it seems as though they could be unloaded.

    Pirate Code for Jail!: -If a crew aboard this ship cannot be unloaded because of an ability or because it has a point cost of 0 (zero), it remains aboard this ship; all other crew aboard are placed on your home island.

    I understand that the likely intent is that ALL 0-point crew cannot be unloaded/transferred to islands. However, based on not finding it illegal in any existing rules, I can’t fault people for letting the non+5 versions be on islands.

     

    I think this was answered on MT, but can Jailhouse Dog target a Unique Treasure for elimination that is face up on a wild island that would normally be face down? (ex: Maps of Alexandria flips the Natives UT face up, then later in the game the JHD is used to eliminate Natives from the island without a ship exploring to activate the Natives first)

     

    If Natives and Plague (or Missionary) are found on the same island, I assume that the effect of Natives happens even if the exploring player chooses to apply the Plague first? Ex: Plague eliminates all the crew, which would seemingly make the ship immune to Natives in that moment. However, Natives specifically says “number of crew on her when Natives is revealed”, which means that Natives must be applied even after the crew are wiped out? (taking into account the Explore Action order of operations on page 62 of the Code)

     

    After looking at treasure on a wild island, you may trade any one treasure from that island for a random treasure on any other wild island. This ship must load the traded treasure.

    In a situation where a ship using the Island Treasure Trading ability explores and has its Explorer eliminated by Plague, must it still load the traded treasure (let’s say it’s a regular 3 coin) or can it not load it because the free explore was interrupted and stopped by the UT ability?

    Exploring: -If an explore action is provided by an Explorer crew and that crew is eliminated or removed by a unique treasure you must still resolve the effects of any other remaining UTs before the action ends. An additional explore action will be required to load any other treasure or cargo from the island onto the ship.

    I think it would still have to load it, based on this line:

    -Ability Conflict Hierarchy: This list applies only when two or more abilities conflict. When an ability and a rule conflict the ability always takes precedence regardless of the terms used, unless specifically stated otherwise.

    #18060
    Woelf
    Moderator

    I assume you cannot swap a 0-point crew via the CJS/UPS ability because such a crew (like Robinson) can never be on an island?  It says so explicitly for the 0LR +5 crew but not the 0-point reducers (or 0LR Rerollers), so I wanted to make sure. I just can’t find anything that says that they cannot be unloaded to an island.

    CJS: When this ship is given an explore action, you can swap a treasure on the wild island a crew on any friendly ship.

    Pirate Code: If the treasure cannot be loaded onto the ship or the crew cannot be unloaded due to an ability, effect, or any other reason, the swap cannot be made.

    Complete Game Rules: A crew with a point cost of 0 can be assigned only to a ship that shares its nationality.

    -This limits what ships the crew can be assigned to, but since I don’t think you ever “assign” crew to an island, it seems as though they could be unloaded.

    Pirate Code for Jail!: -If a crew aboard this ship cannot be unloaded because of an ability or because it has a point cost of 0 (zero), it remains aboard this ship; all other crew aboard are placed on your home island.

    I understand that the likely intent is that ALL 0-point crew cannot be unloaded/transferred to islands. However, based on not finding it illegal in any existing rules, I can’t fault people for letting the non+5 versions be on islands.

    The 0-Point assignment rule applies in all of those cases, forcing them to be on a nationality-matching crew at all times, except when explicitly captured using an ability like Ransom (swaps and trades aren’t  enough).

    I think this was answered on MT, but can Jailhouse Dog target a Unique Treasure for elimination that is face up on a wild island that would normally be face down? (ex: Maps of Alexandria flips the Natives UT face up, then later in the game the JHD is used to eliminate Natives from the island without a ship exploring to activate the Natives first)

    Jailhouse Dog can target any face up UT, regardless of when or how that UT was revealed or where it’s located.

    If Natives and Plague (or Missionary) are found on the same island, I assume that the effect of Natives happens even if the exploring player chooses to apply the Plague first? Ex: Plague eliminates all the crew, which would seemingly make the ship immune to Natives in that moment. However, Natives specifically says “number of crew on her when Natives is revealed”, which means that Natives must be applied even after the crew are wiped out? (taking into account the Explore Action order of operations on page 62 of the Code)

    “When revealed” is the key phrase, as you noted.  The Natives don’t care what happens to your crew after being revealed, so if Plague or some other crew-killing UT is present with it, you get hit by both in full.

    After looking at treasure on a wild island, you may trade any one treasure from that island for a random treasure on any other wild island. This ship must load the traded treasure.

    In a situation where a ship using the Island Treasure Trading ability explores and has its Explorer eliminated by Plague, must it still load the traded treasure (let’s say it’s a regular 3 coin) or can it not load it because the free explore was interrupted and stopped by the UT ability?

    Exploring: -If an explore action is provided by an Explorer crew and that crew is eliminated or removed by a unique treasure you must still resolve the effects of any other remaining UTs before the action ends. An additional explore action will be required to load any other treasure or cargo from the island onto the ship.

    I think it would still have to load it, based on this line:

    -Ability Conflict Hierarchy: This list applies only when two or more abilities conflict. When an ability and a rule conflict the ability always takes precedence regardless of the terms used, unless specifically stated otherwise.

    The ship must load the traded treasure, so it keeps that, but any other non-unique treasures would remain on the island when the action was interrupted.

    #18061
    Ben
    Keymaster

    The 0-Point assignment rule applies in all of those cases, forcing them to be on a nationality-matching crew at all times, except when explicitly captured using an ability like Ransom (swaps and trades aren’t  enough).

    Fair enough, though I will say that I disagree and I consider it to be a true rules loophole at this point.

    Assignment only applies to ships, not islands. “Assignment refers to both the act of placing or loading cargo onto a ship and to the constant state of being carried by that ship.”

    They should have worded it more specifically in the Placing Crew section as something like “A crew with a point cost of 0 can be assigned only to a ship that shares its nationality, and can never be on an island.” (addition in italics)

    #18063
    Ben
    Keymaster

    I discovered something I don’t think I’d ever seen or thought about before in a recent game of Tournament #3. An island can be placed so close to the corner of the map in such a way that a ship can start the game docked there, but with no room to maneuver to leave that little corner it occupies.  Especially with flat earth (hard boundary, not abyss) as the default rule, are there any rules problems with that?

    I see it as a potential double edged sword: it could be a way to almost ensure protection for a Ransom/Mycron/Calypso “home island camper” crew, but it could also be to a player’s detriment if they wished to end the game early via sabotage when they know they’re ahead (but can’t derelict their final ship).

    In the example pictured, the width of the galley oars and the height of the rocks on the GF9 island would have combined to make it impossible for the Patagonia to leave her little corner (she didn’t actually start the game there). I think there was room on the east side of the island for a 2 mast blockade runner (very narrow beam) to slip through for a ram, but the island also could have been placed in such a way that no ship or cannon shot could make it through.  There are also some island shapes that have more of a cove/inlet shape, potentially allowing a larger ship to hide out all game. (an actual “hidden cove”!)

    HI issue

    This also has some interesting implications for some ideas I’ve been having lately, about trying to prevent the game from ending, winning by stalemate, etc.  Especially in a 2 player game, this combined with a low number of terrain (or an oared ship in the enemy fleet that is hard to suicide) could potentially prevent the “no future move actions” endgame trigger.  Combined with game elements such as Isles of Fire that can help prevent the “half or more” trigger and things like Wolves, things could get silly in a hurry.  XD   (maybe you could hide ships in the cove to help win on Units in Play if a 0-0 gold tie resulted, though it would be hard to pull off)  It’s also unlikely to work properly more than once against the same opponent if using the default rule of choosing other players’ home islands.

    #18064
    Ben
    Keymaster

    Mysterious Island effects cannot be re-rolled.

    I assume this confirms that MI effect rolls are considered to be made for the island rather than the ship?  In which case, the Cursed Zone event would not affect MI rolls.

     

    Cursed Captain Jack: Once at the beginning of each of your turns, roll a d6. On a result of 6, no abilities except Parley can be used until the beginning of your next turn.

    -If any events are in play when this ability is applied, their effects are ignored but they are not removed from the game. When the effect of this ability ends, any events in play resume their effects as normal.

    What happens to game pieces that involve counting turns? (such as the mermaids event, Sunken Treasure UT, etc.)  Would the “reset period” before rolling for CCJ’s ability on the following turn of a “cancelled turn” cause them to elapse a turn in the count? (I imagine there is a reset since CCJ’s ability has the same “beginning of turn” text as Copier Davy Jones, who has a reset period that can have implications where abilities like a cargo bonus could have wider implications even if the same ability is re-copied)
    Not sure if any of those would be affected in different ways – for example, Sunken Treasure says “at the beginning of each of your turns”, while mermaids does not.

    If CCJ is eliminated or removed from the game during a “cancelled round” where he rolls a 6, are all abilities except Parley still cancelled until his player’s next turn?

    I assume CCJ functions even if the use of his ability being applied would prevent him from functioning? (ex: he gets a 6 while on a sea monster via Chariot of the Gods, cancelling the UT which I believe forces his removal from the game)

    If CCJ is active, does that cause Turtles in the water to be both immobile and immune to elimination?

    When Turtles dock at a home island, are they replaced by 1 coins or the tokens simply placed on the island?  If they are not converted to 1’s, would CCJ make them worthless?  (it seems so; it would be wild to “cancel” an opponent’s gold advantage at the opportune moment. This could also implicate the PotC Dead Man’s Chest UT and others)

    Are Gold Capture captives already unloaded at a home island worthless while CCJ is active? (Code says “zero gold when unloaded” but nothing about if they’ve already been unloaded)

    -If a captured crew is taken or stolen by an opponent other than the original owner, or this ability is cancelled, eliminated, turned facedown, or removed from this ship, the previously captured crew remain generic cargo, cannot use any abilities, and will not count against the ship’s point or cargo limits. They will be worth , unless some source of this ability is also present and active (not cancelled) on the ship.

    I assume CCJ prevents abilities that happen in the “future” ahead of his effect, from effects/abilities that occurred before his 6 roll happened?  Ex: Player 1 steals gold with the HI raiding ability. Player 2 gets a 6 with CCJ – does Player 1’s ship have to leave the enemy HI on her turn, or can she now just sit there instead since the ability is cancelled for the whole round?

    Does Holy Water/Davy Jones’ Heart provide any protection against CCJ?

    I assume that as soon as CCJ goes inactive, any dormant UT effects are applied immediately, before other things such as a kraken surround can occur?

    If CCJ’s ship uses Runes of Thor to get the 6 and also has Nemo’s Plans aboard, does Runes of Thor get eliminated when Nemo’s Plans gets shut down, or is it preserved if Nemo’s Plans can save the Runes before CCJ’s ability takes effect?

    ^If it’s the latter: Is endgame condition #3 (no future move actions) triggered if a player has CCJ with Nemo’s Plans and Runes of Thor aboard to prevent an enemy player’s last (derelict) ship from ever repairing with the Trees UT? (for example, if they loaded Trees with a derelict ship while CCJ is active, the derelict ship is then forced away from the island, and the theoretical “future repair” of Trees is the player’s only hope of staying in the game)  On one hand, the CCJ player could decide not to use the Runes of Thor and miss a CCJ roll, letting Trees repair the enemy ship and it could get future move actions.  Or they could just flat-out say they would always use CCJ to prevent the use of Trees, in which case they would have complete control over the game if the endgame condition was not considered to be triggered.

    While CCJ is active, are players allowed to unload UT’s that can normally be unloaded for gold? (if so, they would just be worthless and I believe stay that way)  Ex: Barbary Banner/etc become “generic” UT’s? “UTs that produce a gold value must be unloaded when a ship docks at its home island. No other face-up UT can be unloaded to any island unless an ability specifically allows otherwise.”  Would CCJ’s ability take precedence over that rule, allowing a face-up UT like Fruit to be unloaded to a home island?

    If a ship explores an island and finds a unique treasure, it is loaded and revealed per the standard rules but remains dormant until the effect of this ability ends. If the UT would normally be loaded facedown it remains face up.

    Since they are loaded face up, does that mean it automatically turns Abandoned Crew into crew (not treasure) as soon as they are loaded?  Or do they “remain dormant” and in some kind of purgatory state in between crew and treasure?

    While CCJ is active, if a ship loads a bunch of UT’s that are normally loaded face down, what happens when they go active?  If they suddenly have to take up one cargo space each (due to their abilities functioning normally), can a player activate them before resolving an illegal cargo situation, or are they forced out of the game before any effects can be applied?

    Lots of strange implications with CCJ! Would be fun to intentionally give an opponent a UT like Fruit that normally can’t be unloaded, upon losing a boarding party. Also, since you can use Parley while it’s active, I think you could give an opponent a negative UT that normally can’t be unloaded.

     

    Runes of the Serpent: This treasure takes up one cargo space. This ship can dock at any iceberg. On her next turn, you may place her docked at any other iceberg; she can still be given a move action that turn. Then remove Runes of the Serpent from the game.

    After the ship docks at the first iceberg, does it being eliminated via Runes of Destruction prevent the ship from docking at a different iceberg on her next turn?

    If after docking at the second iceberg and Runes of Magic is played, does the ship lose a mast to the iceberg if the iceberg is moved L in such a way that it maintains contact with the bow of the ship? (such as the port bow area to the starboard bow area on a wide junk ship)  Or would that be considered a terrain-based redocking?  (I assume if the iceberg is moved into contact with any other part of the ship, she definitely takes damage)

     

    Runes of Wealth: This treasure takes up one cargo space. When this ship has reached her cargo capacity, roll a d6. Replace the value of each non-unique treasure on this ship with the result. Then remove Runes of Wealth from the game.

    If Runes of Wealth is rolled for in a Cursed Zone and the player gets a 1, are the coins replaced with 0’s or 1’s? (theoretically they should be -1’s, but I would guess 1’s since d6 rolls below 1 are not accounted for in the game, to my knowledge)

    If Runes of Wealth and Nemo’s Plans are on the same ship, what happens when the cargo capacity is reached? I assume the player could just continually roll a d6 over and over until they got the result they wanted?  Or would they have to re-reach the ship’s cargo capacity each time they wanted to roll? (such as unloading a crew and loading it back again via the free transfer rule)

     

    I thought I was onto a potential auto-win via a smokepot specialist gimmick…

    Fog Hopping with a smokepot specialist: When the fog bank is removed at the beginning of your turn, you may choose to roll and place this ship immediately (per normal the rules for smokepots) or you may choose to have it remain “inside” the fog. If it remains in the fog, the ship must exit another fog bank before the end of your turn; if it does not exit, it is removed from the game instead.

    Smokepot Specialist entry: When the smoke (fog bank) is to be removed, if there are any ships “lost” inside the player whose turn it is should roll for each of their exit locations, place them accordingly, and then remove the fog bank.

    … but it appears impossible. I assume that the second option (to stay inside a fog bank about to be eliminated) for a Fog Hopper is there and not in the Smokepot Specialist entry because if it was in the latter, it would allow for gamey situations where the smokebank controller could choose to let any enemy ships inside be removed from the game?

    Ex: Put a smokebank next to an enemy HI on turn 1, then use MI’s or Altar of the Loa/etc to move their entire enemy fleet into the smokebank. At the beginning of your next turn, since you are the current player, choose option 2 that all ships inside stay and therefore get removed. (looks like option 2 is only an option with a Fog Hopper specifically)

     

    Regarding sequential bad fire mast rolls, I assume this is the correct ruling because it occurred before this one? (both answers at the bottom of those posts. I didn’t realize until now, searching for an unrelated past question that I had asked it twice)

     

    I can’t recall or find what happens when an outside force pushes a ship out of a fog bank.  If an L-mover or something like Bad Maps pushes a ship out of a fog bank, do you still roll for exit location?

     

    If a piece of terrain is placed underneath a kraken surrounding a ship, do both roll for effect or is it only the kraken since it is (likely) the only one touching the terrain?  Would placing a whirlpool under the kraken+surrounded ship via the Lost UT allow both players that control those ships to use the whirlpool immediately?  Since the kraken would be touching the whirlpool first, I assume its controlling player would choose whether or not to whirl the kraken first. If they choose to, can they bring the surrounded ship with them since the surrounded ship never touches the whirlpool? If they choose not to bring the surrounded ship and the formerly surrounded ship takes the whirlpool to the same exit location, the kraken player could then immediately surround the ship again (“At any time during your turn if your kraken is within S of an opponent’s ship, it may surround that ship as a free action”).  If it was a 10 masted ship, the hull is long enough that the resulting surround could place the kraken in contact with a third whirlpool – within S of the second one.  Thus the cycle could potentially renew again!  XD

     

    Going back to March 2023:

    The mover ability of Tsuro (and similar) doesn’t work because it can’t push one ship through another, even if there would be enough physical space at the end of the L-distance to place the target ship.   The Kraken’s base does count as part of the Kraken even though it mostly only shows water, and any outside force the tried to move the surrounded should would have to move the surrounded ship through that base, so the ship has nowhere to go.

    Would an L-mover work if the ship inside the kraken was ghostly?

    The effect of ghostly applies any time this ship moves, whether it is due to a move action or any other means.

    It seems like that could be used on a ghostly ship to execute a “kraken pass” going from one kraken to another.  Or on a non-ghostly ship if both krakens were cancelled.

    If a kraken is cancelled while multiple ships are forced to move into it (such as an entire set of native canoes), what happens when the Kraken keyword is reactivated?  Are all but one of the ships forced out, or can the kraken player choose to not surround any of the ships?  In this instance, does it matter when the Kraken keyword is reactivated? (ex: if it gets reactivated after a friendly CCJ roll fails, vs. if reactivated during an opponent’s turn when an enemy CCJ effect wears off)

     

    Can a ship that has all L-range cannons use Broadsides Attack successfully to hit an enemy ship that has the defensive “L-immunity” ability? (L-range cannons cannot hit this ship)  Relevant Code entries:

    -Broadsides Attack ignores all defensive abilities of the target ship, except those that make it an invalid target for a shoot action.

    -The ability “L-range cannons cannot hit this ship” does not make a ship an invalid target, even if the attacker has only L-range cannons available. It can prevent a shot from hitting, but does not prevent the shot from being made.

    This seems to imply that a Broadsides Attack from L-range cannons could indeed hit an otherwise L-immune ship – since the enemy ship is not an invalid target, BA should ignore all defensive abilities, including the ability to not be hit by L-range cannons (regardless of them being reduced to S range).

    It seems like that last sentence of the second entry (can prevent a shot from hitting) is meant as a reminder for when L-range shots are potentially taken against an L-immune ship, not specifically when BA is used against an L-immune ship.

     

    Should the Letter of Marque UT’s be part of the No-Duplicates Rule? The CC version has an additional ability regarding forts, while the PotC one is clearly set in that “movie universe” which is distinct from the Crimson Coast lore.

    I think the Letter of Marque UT is actually a trojan horse. It says “This ship can dock at an enemy home island and be given repair actions (only) while there.”  Technically, that means you cannot be given a move action to move away from the island… meaning the ship is stuck there!  O_O  XD

    #18066
    Captain Vendari
    Participant

    I was reading through the flavor text on Zeus, and I think I’ve found definitive evidence that Guichuan is 100% a different ship. Ocean’s Edge takes place in the aftermath of the fall of the Jade Rebellion (which probably took place “off screen” during Frozen North), hence why we see reprints of their ships dispersed among the Big Six. Zeus’ flavor text describes the battle through which Blackheart took command of the Baochuan. Given that this occurs after the events of Davy Jones’ Curse, Guichuan is out and about somewhere at the same time as this battle.

    Not really relevant anymore, but might be worth including in the notes for Boachuan vs Guichuan vs Zeus as the final nail in the coffin.

    #18157
    Woelf
    Moderator

    I discovered something I don’t think I’d ever seen or thought about before in a recent game of Tournament #3. An island can be placed so close to the corner of the map in such a way that a ship can start the game docked there, but with no room to maneuver to leave that little corner it occupies.  Especially with flat earth (hard boundary, not abyss) as the default rule, are there any rules problems with that?

    I think the simplest solution is to have a minimum edge distance rule, maybe a single L, just to avoid any weird issues like that.   Granted, I don’t see that ever happening by accident.

    I assume this confirms that MI effect rolls are considered to be made for the island rather than the ship?  In which case, the Cursed Zone event would not affect MI rolls.

    More specifically, the roll is not being made by (or for) the ship, which is where the reroll ability applies.

    What happens to game pieces that involve counting turns? (such as the mermaids event, Sunken Treasure UT, etc.)  Would the “reset period” before rolling for CCJ’s ability on the following turn of a “cancelled turn” cause them to elapse a turn in the count? (I imagine there is a reset since CCJ’s ability has the same “beginning of turn” text as Copier Davy Jones, who has a reset period that can have implications where abilities like a cargo bonus could have wider implications even if the same ability is re-copied)
    Not sure if any of those would be affected in different ways – for example, Sunken Treasure says “at the beginning of each of your turns”, while mermaids does not.

    It essentially puts counters on pause until they can resume.

    Any counters due to change when you would start your turn will still count down normally, but counters that would change during other player turns will not, because they’re temporarily blocked.

    If CCJ is eliminated or removed from the game during a “cancelled round” where he rolls a 6, are all abilities except Parley still cancelled until his player’s next turn?

    I assume CCJ functions even if the use of his ability being applied would prevent him from functioning? (ex: he gets a 6 while on a sea monster via Chariot of the Gods, cancelling the UT which I believe forces his removal from the game)

    Like other persistent/duration effects, if the source (Jack) is eliminated or cancelled somehow, the ability restriction immediately ends.

    Shutting down the Chariot will eject anyone riding on it, even Jack.  (Don’t put him there!)

    If CCJ is active, does that cause Turtles in the water to be both immobile and immune to elimination?

    Correct.   They just sit there doing nothing (and cannot be interacted with) until the effect wears off.

    When Turtles dock at a home island, are they replaced by 1 coins or the tokens simply placed on the island?  If they are not converted to 1’s, would CCJ make them worthless?  (it seems so; it would be wild to “cancel” an opponent’s gold advantage at the opportune moment. This could also implicate the PotC Dead Man’s Chest UT and others)

    They technically do not get replaced with coins, and are simply worth 1 gold each.   They would have no value while CCJ’s ability is active, but his effect doesn’t continue beyond the end of the game, so they’ll still count toward victory if they’re on a home island.

    Are Gold Capture captives already unloaded at a home island worthless while CCJ is active? (Code says “zero gold when unloaded” but nothing about if they’ve already been unloaded)

    I need to add a note to the PC stating that once a captive is unloaded for gold, that value cannot be lost (still counts toward victory at the end, similar to Turtles) no matter what happens to the crew that captured them after being unloaded.   Otherwise, having the capture crew be cancelled or eliminated after the fact could create issues.

    I assume CCJ prevents abilities that happen in the “future” ahead of his effect, from effects/abilities that occurred before his 6 roll happened?  Ex: Player 1 steals gold with the HI raiding ability. Player 2 gets a 6 with CCJ – does Player 1’s ship have to leave the enemy HI on her turn, or can she now just sit there instead since the ability is cancelled for the whole round?

    The ship would still have to leave, because it can’t dock at an opponent’s home island.  Even if it does not (or cannot) physically move, it becomes undocked.

    Does Holy Water/Davy Jones’ Heart provide any protection against CCJ?

    Yes, Holy Water provides protection…   unless the ship carrying it is on the same side as CCJ.  (HW only protects against enemy abilities.)

    I assume that as soon as CCJ goes inactive, any dormant UT effects are applied immediately, before other things such as a kraken surround can occur?

    Correct.   Persistent effects resume the instant CCJ’s effect ends.

    If CCJ’s ship uses Runes of Thor to get the 6 and also has Nemo’s Plans aboard, does Runes of Thor get eliminated when Nemo’s Plans gets shut down, or is it preserved if Nemo’s Plans can save the Runes before CCJ’s ability takes effect?

    ^If it’s the latter: Is endgame condition #3 (no future move actions) triggered if a player has CCJ with Nemo’s Plans and Runes of Thor aboard to prevent an enemy player’s last (derelict) ship from ever repairing with the Trees UT? (for example, if they loaded Trees with a derelict ship while CCJ is active, the derelict ship is then forced away from the island, and the theoretical “future repair” of Trees is the player’s only hope of staying in the game)  On one hand, the CCJ player could decide not to use the Runes of Thor and miss a CCJ roll, letting Trees repair the enemy ship and it could get future move actions.  Or they could just flat-out say they would always use CCJ to prevent the use of Trees, in which case they would have complete control over the game if the endgame condition was not considered to be triggered.

    Runes of Thor removes itself as soon as it converts the result to a 6.  Because that also triggers Jack’s ability, Nemo’s Plans cannot save it.

    Jack can prevent a derelict from repairing with Trees, but won’t prevent that endgame trigger if Trees are facedown on the island, even if all players know it’s there, because the game counts it as a generic facedown coin if it’s not face up.

    While CCJ is active, are players allowed to unload UT’s that can normally be unloaded for gold? (if so, they would just be worthless and I believe stay that way)  Ex: Barbary Banner/etc become “generic” UT’s? “UTs that produce a gold value must be unloaded when a ship docks at its home island. No other face-up UT can be unloaded to any island unless an ability specifically allows otherwise.”  Would CCJ’s ability take precedence over that rule, allowing a face-up UT like Fruit to be unloaded to a home island?

    If a ship explores an island and finds a unique treasure, it is loaded and revealed per the standard rules but remains dormant until the effect of this ability ends. If the UT would normally be loaded facedown it remains face up.

    Since they are loaded face up, does that mean it automatically turns Abandoned Crew into crew (not treasure) as soon as they are loaded?  Or do they “remain dormant” and in some kind of purgatory state in between crew and treasure?

    While CCJ is active, if a ship loads a bunch of UT’s that are normally loaded face down, what happens when they go active?  If they suddenly have to take up one cargo space each (due to their abilities functioning normally), can a player activate them before resolving an illegal cargo situation, or are they forced out of the game before any effects can be applied?

    Lots of strange implications with CCJ! Would be fun to intentionally give an opponent a UT like Fruit that normally can’t be unloaded, upon losing a boarding party. Also, since you can use Parley while it’s active, I think you could give an opponent a negative UT that normally can’t be unloaded.

    The generic UT rules apply to all while CCJ is active, so they must be revealed when found during an explore action, they take up no space, and cannot be unloaded, even if they could/would do something else under normal circumstance.

    Abandoned Crew would have to be revealed immediately per UT rules, but from that point on are treated as standard crew (CCJ will block the use of their abilities.)

    Persistent UT effects will resume normally as soon as CCJ’s ability wears off.   UTs that are normally revealed and take effect when first found on an island will apply their effects immediately at that time, if possible.    UTs that can normally be loaded facedown to be used later remain face up, and can be used when the player carrying them chooses to use them.

    Runes of the Serpent: This treasure takes up one cargo space. This ship can dock at any iceberg. On her next turn, you may place her docked at any other iceberg; she can still be given a move action that turn. Then remove Runes of the Serpent from the game.

    After the ship docks at the first iceberg, does it being eliminated via Runes of Destruction prevent the ship from docking at a different iceberg on her next turn?

    It’s similar to using Fog-Hoppers and smoke, so as long as there’s at least one iceberg still in play on the following turn, the ship can dock there via Serpent.    (A key difference from smoke hopping is that the ship remains in play where it was when the initial iceberg is removed; it doesn’t disappear along with it.)    You must do the docking before doing anything else with the ship; you can’t give it actions and then jump away to some other iceberg.

    If after docking at the second iceberg and Runes of Magic is played, does the ship lose a mast to the iceberg if the iceberg is moved L in such a way that it maintains contact with the bow of the ship? (such as the port bow area to the starboard bow area on a wide junk ship)  Or would that be considered a terrain-based redocking?  (I assume if the iceberg is moved into contact with any other part of the ship, she definitely takes damage)

    If an iceberg moves while the ship is docked, it’s treated like Bad Maps – the ship moves with it.

     Runes of Wealth: This treasure takes up one cargo space. When this ship has reached her cargo capacity, roll a d6. Replace the value of each non-unique treasure on this ship with the result. Then remove Runes of Wealth from the game.

    If Runes of Wealth is rolled for in a Cursed Zone and the player gets a 1, are the coins replaced with 0’s or 1’s? (theoretically they should be -1’s, but I would guess 1’s since d6 rolls below 1 are not accounted for in the game, to my knowledge)

    If Runes of Wealth and Nemo’s Plans are on the same ship, what happens when the cargo capacity is reached? I assume the player could just continually roll a d6 over and over until they got the result they wanted?  Or would they have to re-reach the ship’s cargo capacity each time they wanted to roll? (such as unloading a crew and loading it back again via the free transfer rule)

    Gold value cannot be reduced below zero, but can be reduced to zero.

    Nemo’s Plans won’t continuously re-trigger the effect while the  ship is full, but if it goes below full capacity and fills back up again, it can trigger again.

    #18158
    Woelf
    Moderator

    (Contined…)

     

    I thought I was onto a potential auto-win via a smokepot specialist gimmick…

    Fog Hopping with a smokepot specialist: When the fog bank is removed at the beginning of your turn, you may choose to roll and place this ship immediately (per normal the rules for smokepots) or you may choose to have it remain “inside” the fog. If it remains in the fog, the ship must exit another fog bank before the end of your turn; if it does not exit, it is removed from the game instead.

    Smokepot Specialist entry: When the smoke (fog bank) is to be removed, if there are any ships “lost” inside the player whose turn it is should roll for each of their exit locations, place them accordingly, and then remove the fog bank.

    … but it appears impossible. I assume that the second option (to stay inside a fog bank about to be eliminated) for a Fog Hopper is there and not in the Smokepot Specialist entry because if it was in the latter, it would allow for gamey situations where the smokebank controller could choose to let any enemy ships inside be removed from the game?

    Ex: Put a smokebank next to an enemy HI on turn 1, then use MI’s or Altar of the Loa/etc to move their entire enemy fleet into the smokebank. At the beginning of your next turn, since you are the current player, choose option 2 that all ships inside stay and therefore get removed. (looks like option 2 is only an option with a Fog Hopper specifically)

    Remaining inside the fog/smoke is only an option for Fog-Hoppers specifically, and the owner of the ship gets to decide if it stays or not.    Otherwise, all ships automatically get forced out when the smoke is removed.

    Regarding sequential bad fire mast rolls, I assume this is the correct ruling because it occurred before this one? (both answers at the bottom of those posts. I didn’t realize until now, searching for an unrelated past question that I had asked it twice)

    Newly-added masts do not immediately generate additional rolls.   I’ll add that one to my notes to get it clearly stated.

    I can’t recall or find what happens when an outside force pushes a ship out of a fog bank.  If an L-mover or something like Bad Maps pushes a ship out of a fog bank, do you still roll for exit location?

    Nothing happens; those can’t push ships out.   A move action is required to exit.

    If a piece of terrain is placed underneath a kraken surrounding a ship, do both roll for effect or is it only the kraken since it is (likely) the only one touching the terrain?  Would placing a whirlpool under the kraken+surrounded ship via the Lost UT allow both players that control those ships to use the whirlpool immediately?  Since the kraken would be touching the whirlpool first, I assume its controlling player would choose whether or not to whirl the kraken first. If they choose to, can they bring the surrounded ship with them since the surrounded ship never touches the whirlpool? If they choose not to bring the surrounded ship and the formerly surrounded ship takes the whirlpool to the same exit location, the kraken player could then immediately surround the ship again (“At any time during your turn if your kraken is within S of an opponent’s ship, it may surround that ship as a free action”).  If it was a 10 masted ship, the hull is long enough that the resulting surround could place the kraken in contact with a third whirlpool – within S of the second one.  Thus the cycle could potentially renew again!  XD

    The surrounded ship cannot move, so it can’t use the whirlpool effect if the Kraken/Octo remains there.   If the K/O player does move it to another, the surrounded ship remains where it was and is now free to use the whirlpool as well (because the K/O has moved away).

    If the ship moves within range of the K/O it can be surrounded again, but the whirlpool effect will not retrigger again even if one or both are still touching the second one.

    Going back to March 2023:

    The mover ability of Tsuro (and similar) doesn’t work because it can’t push one ship through another, even if there would be enough physical space at the end of the L-distance to place the target ship.   The Kraken’s base does count as part of the Kraken even though it mostly only shows water, and any outside force that tried to move the surrounded should would have to move the surrounded ship through that base, so the ship has nowhere to go.

    Would an L-mover work if the ship inside the kraken was ghostly?

    The effect of ghostly applies any time this ship moves, whether it is due to a move action or any other means.

    It seems like that could be used on a ghostly ship to execute a “kraken pass” going from one kraken to another.  Or on a non-ghostly ship if both krakens were cancelled.

    If a kraken is cancelled while multiple ships are forced to move into it (such as an entire set of native canoes), what happens when the Kraken keyword is reactivated?  Are all but one of the ships forced out, or can the kraken player choose to not surround any of the ships?  In this instance, does it matter when the Kraken keyword is reactivated? (ex: if it gets reactivated after a friendly CCJ roll fails, vs. if reactivated during an opponent’s turn when an enemy CCJ effect wears off)

    A Ghostly ship could be pushed out, but only if it can be moved completely out, because it can’t end the movement overlapping any part of another ship.  This also prevents passing the ship directly from one Kraken to another; the first has to move out of the way somehow so the second can use the “surround” ability on the just-released ship.

    Cancelling the Kraken ability doesn’t negate the presence of its baseplate.  Any ship pushed toward it would stop immediately upon hitting that.

    Can a ship that has all L-range cannons use Broadsides Attack successfully to hit an enemy ship that has the defensive “L-immunity” ability? (L-range cannons cannot hit this ship)  Relevant Code entries:

    -Broadsides Attack ignores all defensive abilities of the target ship, except those that make it an invalid target for a shoot action.

    -The ability “L-range cannons cannot hit this ship” does not make a ship an invalid target, even if the attacker has only L-range cannons available. It can prevent a shot from hitting, but does not prevent the shot from being made.

    This seems to imply that a Broadsides Attack from L-range cannons could indeed hit an otherwise L-immune ship – since the enemy ship is not an invalid target, BA should ignore all defensive abilities, including the ability to not be hit by L-range cannons (regardless of them being reduced to S range).

    It seems like that last sentence of the second entry (can prevent a shot from hitting) is meant as a reminder for when L-range shots are potentially taken against an L-immune ship, not specifically when BA is used against an L-immune ship.

    L-immunity is useless against Broadsides Attack, regardless of the cannons on the attacking ship.  It prevent hits, not shots, so by the time those cannonballs arrive BA has shut down the immunity.

    Should the Letter of Marque UT’s be part of the No-Duplicates Rule? The CC version has an additional ability regarding forts, while the PotC one is clearly set in that “movie universe” which is distinct from the Crimson Coast lore.

    The no-duplicates rule does apply to both UT versions of the Letter, and they should be treated as having the same ability (including the part about Forts).  The only reason the PotC version doesn’t include the extra text is because WK was pretending that forts didn’t exist when that set was made.

    I think the Letter of Marque UT is actually a trojan horse. It says “This ship can dock at an enemy home island and be given repair actions (only) while there.”  Technically, that means you cannot be given a move action to move away from the island… meaning the ship is stuck there!  O_O  XD

    Yes, go with the option that breaks the game!   😛

    (Really, it’s just meant to say you can’t steal stuff or shoot at other ships while there.  Fix your ship and then leave before anyone else returns home.)

    #18159
    Ben
    Keymaster

    I understand the first answer below makes the second situation nearly impossible, but it could still happen via an MI that allows for a coin to be replaced with a UT, providing the possibility of additional Runes of Thor for CCJ every turn. (hence my follow up question)

    If CCJ’s ship uses Runes of Thor to get the 6 and also has Nemo’s Plans aboard, does Runes of Thor get eliminated when Nemo’s Plans gets shut down, or is it preserved if Nemo’s Plans can save the Runes before CCJ’s ability takes effect?

    ^If it’s the latter: Is endgame condition #3 (no future move actions) triggered if a player has CCJ with Nemo’s Plans and Runes of Thor aboard to prevent an enemy player’s last (derelict) ship from ever repairing with the Trees UT? (for example, if they loaded Trees with a derelict ship while CCJ is active, the derelict ship is then forced away from the island, and the theoretical “future repair” of Trees is the player’s only hope of staying in the game)  On one hand, the CCJ player could decide not to use the Runes of Thor and miss a CCJ roll, letting Trees repair the enemy ship and it could get future move actions.  Or they could just flat-out say they would always use CCJ to prevent the use of Trees, in which case they would have complete control over the game if the endgame condition was not considered to be triggered.

    Runes of Thor removes itself as soon as it converts the result to a 6.  Because that also triggers Jack’s ability, Nemo’s Plans cannot save it.

    Jack can prevent a derelict from repairing with Trees, but won’t prevent that endgame trigger if Trees are facedown on the island, even if all players know it’s there, because the game counts it as a generic facedown coin if it’s not face up.

    In the example I was thinking about, it seems Trees would be face up on the enemy derelict if it was loaded when CCJ was active.  However, perhaps it would trigger as “revealed” as soon as CCJ’s effect wears off, repairing the derelict on an enemy turn and preventing CCJ from cancelling it continuously?

    If the ship moves within range of the K/O it can be surrounded again, but the whirlpool effect will not retrigger again even if one or both are still touching the second one.

    Makes sense for the second whirlpool; I was thinking of a strange niche situation where there are 2 pairs of whirlpools each within “surround distance” so the kraken+ship combo could keep bouncing between them.

     

    Can a kraken that has no segments (still in play via Eternal) move away from the home island with no segments and surround an enemy ship?

    What happens if an Eternal sea creature with no segments is moved away from the home island (perhaps by an L-mover) before it can repair? Does it just “sink” again?

     

    This is just me being stubborn on the “can’t ignore iceberg terrain” weirdness, but I couldn’t help but notice: HMS Hermes is the one ship in Ocean’s Edge with the ability of “This ship ignores terrain when she is given a move action (islands are not terrain).” (just confirmed on the card as well, not just the Master Spreadsheet)  Icebergs were present in OE, which came out after FN.  However, the ability text changed back to not excluding icebergs from the “ignore” criteria. This also appears to be the case on other post-FN ships, such as Argo, USS Mercury, and Honu Iki.  I think I’m just turning into more of a “rules/abilities as written” type of player over time.

     

    Thanks for the answers!  I think that was probably my longest-ever Rules question post O_O

    #18160
    Woelf
    Moderator

    I understand the first answer below makes the second situation nearly impossible, but it could still happen via an MI that allows for a coin to be replaced with a UT, providing the possibility of additional Runes of Thor for CCJ every turn. (hence my follow up question)

    I’m not quite sure how having additional Runes of Thor would change the scenario?  They would each give you one additional guaranteed success with CCJ’s roll on a future turn, but Nemo’s Plans still wouldn’t be able to retain any of them.

    In the example I was thinking about, it seems Trees would be face up on the enemy derelict if it was loaded when CCJ was active.  However, perhaps it would trigger as “revealed” as soon as CCJ’s effect wears off, repairing the derelict on an enemy turn and preventing CCJ from cancelling it continuously?

    Trees would have to be loaded face up and then would trigger as soon a CCJ wore off, if the ship could be repaired.   If the ship didn’t have anything to repair, it would remain on board until it did, or until the ship docked at an island which would activate the other part of its ability.

    Makes sense for the second whirlpool; I was thinking of a strange niche situation where there are 2 pairs of whirlpools each within “surround distance” so the kraken+ship combo could keep bouncing between them.

    If two whirlpools were placed close enough to do that, technically the kraken could keep bouncing back and forth, but at some point it’s going to run out of segments.  Outside of some weird suicide fleet situation, that’s just going to be a waste of everyone’s time.

    Can a kraken that has no segments (still in play via Eternal) move away from the home island with no segments and surround an enemy ship?

    What happens if an Eternal sea creature with no segments is moved away from the home island (perhaps by an L-mover) before it can repair? Does it just “sink” again?

    Eternal only allows it to exist with no segments while at its home island, so if it leaves for any reason while it has none, it immediately sinks and returns back home.

    This is just me being stubborn on the “can’t ignore iceberg terrain” weirdness, but I couldn’t help but notice: HMS Hermes is the one ship in Ocean’s Edge with the ability of “This ship ignores terrain when she is given a move action (islands are not terrain).” (just confirmed on the card as well, not just the Master Spreadsheet)  Icebergs were present in OE, which came out after FN.  However, the ability text changed back to not excluding icebergs from the “ignore” criteria. This also appears to be the case on other post-FN ships, such as Argo, USS Mercury, and Honu Iki.  

    Both versions of that ability should still be treated the same.   I don’t know why the iceberg part was left out on some of them, but more than likely it was from copying & pasting the text from different previous versions.

    I think I’m just turning into more of a “rules/abilities as written” type of player over time.

    “Rules as written” should usually take priority over rules as (assumed) intended, but that only goes so far when so many different contradictions and variations have show up over the years.

    Thanks for the answers!  I think that was probably my longest-ever Rules question post O_O

    You’re welcome!   I guess that’s what I get for not being able to visit the site for several days!  😀

    #18163
    Ben
    Keymaster

    I’m not quite sure how having additional Runes of Thor would change the scenario?  They would each give you one additional guaranteed success with CCJ’s roll on a future turn, but Nemo’s Plans still wouldn’t be able to retain any of them.

    It was in reference to attempting to block the “no future move actions” endgame trigger – going back to the initial question.  However, since the MI roll could never be guaranteed with no Runes of Thor to ensure it (since the Runes would already be cancelled by CCJ before making the MI roll), it wouldn’t be a way to block it.

    #18164
    Woelf
    Moderator

    I’m not quite sure how having additional Runes of Thor would change the scenario?  They would each give you one additional guaranteed success with CCJ’s roll on a future turn, but Nemo’s Plans still wouldn’t be able to retain any of them.

    It was in reference to attempting to block the “no future move actions” endgame trigger – going back to the initial question.  However, since the MI roll could never be guaranteed with no Runes of Thor to ensure it (since the Runes would already be cancelled by CCJ before making the MI roll), it wouldn’t be a way to block it.

    I see what you mean now.

    That falls under a similar situation as when a player’s last (non-derelict) ship is pinned.   If the “future move action” is being actively prevented by something another player is doing, that end condition won’t trigger.

    Another way to look at it is that if the ship was left entirely on its own without any outside interference, only then could it count toward that condition.

    #18172
    Ben
    Keymaster

    If you find Altar of the Loa and Plague on the same island, I assume you cannot sacrifice crew to the Altar before they would be eliminated via Plague because the effect of Plague occurs as part of the explore action and the Altar effect is optional and you wouldn’t be able to use it until after the explore action ends?

    If I eliminate crew to trigger the Altar and gain control of my opponent’s actions on their next turn, and then the Altar is eliminated later on my turn via the Kharmic Idol, does that mean the crew were sacrificed for nothing and the Altar effect is gone?  I played it that it would still work on my opponent’s turn, because the crew had been eliminated and were gone for good (the Altar was already activated). I partly went that way because it felt more like a “trigger” effect unlike a persistent ability that is active throughout a round.

    Like other persistent/duration effects, if the source (Jack) is eliminated or cancelled somehow, the ability restriction immediately ends.

    #18173
    Woelf
    Moderator

    If you find Altar of the Loa and Plague on the same island, I assume you cannot sacrifice crew to the Altar before they would be eliminated via Plague because the effect of Plague occurs as part of the explore action and the Altar effect is optional and you wouldn’t be able to use it until after the explore action ends?

    Plague has to be resolved before you can use the Altar, so your crew get killed, your ship gets kicked off the island, AND you have to leave the Altar behind.  Frustrating combo to find!

    If I eliminate crew to trigger the Altar and gain control of my opponent’s actions on their next turn, and then the Altar is eliminated later on my turn via the Kharmic Idol, does that mean the crew were sacrificed for nothing and the Altar effect is gone?  I played it that it would still work on my opponent’s turn, because the crew had been eliminated and were gone for good (the Altar was already activated). I partly went that way because it felt more like a “trigger” effect unlike a persistent ability that is active throughout a round.

    If the Altar is eliminated/removed before the controlled actions occur, they’re lost.   It’s the same as if you used a sac-captain to eliminate a crew (or rolled an EA/SAT), but then it got cancelled or eliminated before you were able to take the bonus action.

    #18177
    Ben
    Keymaster

    The “double range, roll 6” ability is an all-or-nothing effect, so you can’t pick and choose specific cannons. You either use it with all of them, or none of them.

    You may double the range of this ship’s cannons each turn, but you must roll a 6 to hit.

    I would prefer that the Sniping ability work in a mix and match way – such as the crew putting extra gunpowder in some cannons due to certain targets being farther away, but a regular amount for enemies at closer range. I also want it to be modular per action, so the ship could shoot 2/3 cannons at doubled range for one action, then maybe more or less cannons at doubled range for a potential second action (the ship has good gun crews, and maybe some extra/speedy powder monkeys).  Would this change be sufficient to make that work?

    You may double the range of any of this ship’s cannons each action, but if you do you must roll a 6 to hit.

    Perhaps there is a more optimal/less wordy way to do it (changes italicized).  Thanks!

     

    If an ability says “This ship may never dock at your home island”, I assume it could still start the game docked at your home island? (because it doesn’t include the clause in Mercenary preventing it)

     

    After looking at treasure on a wild island, you may trade any one treasure from that island for a random treasure on any other wild island. This ship must load the traded treasure.

    I assume if there is a crew with the Island Treasure Trading ability on a ship, unloading that crew during the explore action where you trade does not nullify the ability because the trade occurs before the unloading? (and also because in some situations, you might be required to unload the crew in order to make the trade, since the ship must load the traded treasure)

    Since abilities take precedence over rules, I assume that if a ship with 1 cargo space (occupied by an Island Treasure Trader crew) found the Runes of Wealth UT and traded a different coin for a regular 2 coin, she would have to load the 2 and leave Runes of Wealth on the island? (though it would still be revealed to all players)

    -Unique treasure is always picked up when found, unless an ability specifically allows otherwise.

    When an ability and a rule conflict the ability always takes precedence regardless of the terms used, unless specifically stated otherwise.

    Runes of Wealth:

    This treasure takes up one cargo space. When this ship has reached her cargo capacity, roll a d6. Replace the value of each non-unique treasure on this ship with the result. Then remove Runes of Wealth from the game.

    I originally was using that example with the Fruit UT, but then I remembered the Code entry for it. Should the following entry apply to all of the face up UT’s that take up cargo space? (and must be loaded since they’re face up. I didn’t see the entry for the Runes that take up space)

    -If other cargo can be unloaded to make room for Fruit, it must be unloaded. If the ship has fewer than two cargo spaces and/or sufficient cargo cannot be unloaded, Fruit is still loaded and will take up the additional space as it becomes available.

     

    In some strange universe, Jikininki (the only non-creature ship with 0 cargo spaces) explores an island, loading both Rotting Hull (-1 cargo spaces) and Fruit (takes up 2 spaces). Do you know if there are any strange interactions or problems that might occur because of that? I assume she could still load an oarsman because it doesn’t take up cargo space, even if the cargo is “negative”? (if it can technically go to -1).  Theoretically she could then load other coins that “take up space” and must be loaded, such as Sunken Treasure – maybe even multiple copies via Pandora’s Box(es) until she’s at a bizarre and ridiculous deficit.  XD

     

    The interactions between them mostly depend on the exact wording used for their abilities, but if there’s nothing obvious indicating that a certain one goes before another, the player exploring can choose the order they apply.

    At a wild island, the coins found are Maps of Alexandria, Savage Natives, Missionary, and a 6. The Maps and Savage Natives both say “when revealed”, implying that their effects occur before loading and applying any other mandatory face up UT’s. In this situation I think you must apply the Savage Natives before the Missionary, which could prevent the loading of Missionary?  Savage Natives says “Then this ship can load one more treasure (only).” Since the loser/explorer usually chooses, I chose to load the 6 and not the Missionary as the only other treasure the ship could load.  Or was that wrong because normally you must take any face up UT’s, and that rule would override which of the two remaining coins the ship could load?  I assume if the final coin was something like Rotting Hull instead of the 6, then the exploring player could choose which to load since they’re dealing with a mandatory face up UT either way? (Missionary vs. Rotting Hull)

    #18181
    Woelf
    Moderator

    I would prefer that the Sniping ability work in a mix and match way – such as the crew putting extra gunpowder in some cannons due to certain targets being farther away, but a regular amount for enemies at closer range. I also want it to be modular per action, so the ship could shoot 2/3 cannons at doubled range for one action, then maybe more or less cannons at doubled range for a potential second action (the ship has good gun crews, and maybe some extra/speedy powder monkeys).  Would this change be sufficient to make that work?

    You may double the range of any of this ship’s cannons each action, but if you do you must roll a 6 to hit.

    Perhaps there is a more optimal/less wordy way to do it (changes italicized).  Thanks!

    That change should work.   I’d adjust the ending phrase to “…if you do, that cannon must roll a 6 to hit.” to remove any doubt.

    If an ability says “This ship may never dock at your home island”, I assume it could still start the game docked at your home island? (because it doesn’t include the clause in Mercenary preventing it)

    That ship would be technically unplayable because it could not be placed at the start of a game, unless some alternative placement option was provided, similar to Mercenary.

    I assume if there is a crew with the Island Treasure Trading ability on a ship, unloading that crew during the explore action where you trade does not nullify the ability because the trade occurs before the unloading? (and also because in some situations, you might be required to unload the crew in order to make the trade, since the ship must load the traded treasure)

    As long as the trade is fully resolved before unloading the crew, that’s legal.  If the received treasure somehow forces that crew off after the trade is completed (Fruit) it still works, but if the ship is already full before trading, you can’t use the ability because you wouldn’t be able to load the traded treasure (the traded treasure is assumed to be a standard coin, requiring one space, prior to being traded).

    Since abilities take precedence over rules, I assume that if a ship with 1 cargo space (occupied by an Island Treasure Trader crew) found the Runes of Wealth UT and traded a different coin for a regular 2 coin, she would have to load the 2 and leave Runes of Wealth on the island? (though it would still be revealed to all players)

    If a ship with only 1 cargo space loaded Runes of Wealth, it would force that trader crew to be unloaded, then would trigger its roll and remove itself.   You could then re-load that crew, but still couldn’t trade for a new treasure because the ship is already full (similar to above).

    If you loaded another treasure instead, Runes of Wealth wouldn’t affect it because the new treasure wasn’t on the ship when the value roll was made.

    I originally was using that example with the Fruit UT, but then I remembered the Code entry for it. Should the following entry apply to all of the face up UT’s that take up cargo space? (and must be loaded since they’re face up. I didn’t see the entry for the Runes that take up space)

    Yes, similar should be applied to any space-taking UTs if there isn’t enough space for them.  It’s generally not going to be an issue for Runes of Wealth because filling the cargo triggers its removal.

    In some strange universe, Jikininki (the only non-creature ship with 0 cargo spaces) explores an island, loading both Rotting Hull (-1 cargo spaces) and Fruit (takes up 2 spaces). Do you know if there are any strange interactions or problems that might occur because of that? I assume she could still load an oarsman because it doesn’t take up cargo space, even if the cargo is “negative”? (if it can technically go to -1).  Theoretically she could then load other coins that “take up space” and must be loaded, such as Sunken Treasure – maybe even multiple copies via Pandora’s Box(es) until she’s at a bizarre and ridiculous deficit.  XD

    Rats and Fruit don’t negate each other, and cargo space (like gold value) cannot be negative; it just remains at zero.    The ship could still carry a single oarsman, plus any number of other face up UTs that don’t require space.

    At a wild island, the coins found are Maps of Alexandria, Savage Natives, Missionary, and a 6. The Maps and Savage Natives both say “when revealed”, implying that their effects occur before loading and applying any other mandatory face up UT’s. In this situation I think you must apply the Savage Natives before the Missionary, which could prevent the loading of Missionary?  Savage Natives says “Then this ship can load one more treasure (only).” Since the loser/explorer usually chooses, I chose to load the 6 and not the Missionary as the only other treasure the ship could load.  Or was that wrong because normally you must take any face up UT’s, and that rule would override which of the two remaining coins the ship could load?  I assume if the final coin was something like Rotting Hull instead of the 6, then the exploring player could choose which to load since they’re dealing with a mandatory face up UT either way? (Missionary vs. Rotting Hull)

    The timing really doesn’t matter much with these.  Neither the Missionary nor the Savage Natives care if there are actually any crew on your ship when they activate;  Missionary still removes itself, and SN still limits how much more you can load.

    SN then returns to the island and will trigger again normally the next time a ship explores the island.   The only timing distinction that does matter is whether you apply the Maps or SN first, and that will only determine whether SN returns to the island face down and remains face down, or if it returns and then immediately gets flipped face up.

    SN’s loading restriction only applies to optional treasures, like standard coins and UTs that would normally load face down.   You still have to deal with any and all other UTs normally.

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