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the apparent rule that a canceller can’t cancel himself or his own ship, except the printed card rule says “within S of this ship” and his own ship is quite literally within S of itself
“Within S of this ship” specifically begins at the outermost edge of the ship’s model silohuette. By definition, it is not, in fact, within S of itself.
Helpful explanation from Woelf
Thanks a lot. Like I get it, some of those combos can be really crazy if you do it right (like swoop in with captain to shoot and maybe slap in an extra action via SAT/SAC, and then zoom away with reverse captain and a canceller to ensure they don’t chase after you). It just seemed odd since some of the PC just goes “nope that combo isn’t allowed” when crew like DJC Hawkins exists, showing clear intent the devs wanted it to exist (at least at that time). Does this mean crew like DJC Hawkins are kinda just “dead weight” since they can only do a “one or the other” choice?
“Within S of this ship” specifically begins at the outermost edge of the ship’s model silohuette. By definition, it is not, in fact, within S of itself.
See though, THIS is exactly what I’m talking about. Like I can absolutely agree with this rule based on “tournament logic” (i.e. this prevents my good buddy Fiore from being a super duper international canceller with no downsides at all), but nothing in the official rules says this. And if I’m going to get nerdy about it, the origin point of a line is in fact inside the line as well (i.e. the ship’s model silhouette is part of the ship, and is therefore within S of itself).
I’ll stop my silly ranting though as to prevent wasting discussion space here. I appreciate the answers, since they help clarify my confusion.
Suppose a ship finds Buried Treasure (or Plunder), and that treasure is later lost in a boarding party to an enemy ship. Does the loosing a turn aspect of those treasures apply to the ship that took them in the boarding party?
Ship A finds Buried Treasure(BT) and looses a turn and establishes value. Ship A is later boarded by enemy ship B. Ship B wins the boarding party and takes BT. Does ship B lose a turn, but keep the established value of BT?
Neither treasure seem to have a Code entry.
Suppose a ship finds Buried Treasure (or Plunder), and that treasure is later lost in a boarding party to an enemy ship. Does the loosing a turn aspect of those treasures apply to the ship that took them in the boarding party?
Ship A finds Buried Treasure(BT) and looses a turn and establishes value. Ship A is later boarded by enemy ship B. Ship B wins the boarding party and takes BT. Does ship B lose a turn, but keep the established value of BT?
Neither treasure seem to have a Code entry.
Play them both as written. Any time a ship loads one, it can’t be given actions on its next turn, and then the value resets.
Thematically, Buried Treasure is a little weird, but it could represent the crew fighting over the contents and the value could change based on who they can sell it to when they get to port.
For ships that can stern turn, I assume that rotation “sweeps” across the playing surface? (and the ship needs a clear path, rather than getting picked up and placed, though the Code mentions the latter under Moving)
Also, do you think the Home Island Raider ability should have been handled differently? Similar to boarding parties, I don’t think it should be the loser’s choice – either have the winner choose, or make it a random coin. Of course, if the winner chooses, then they get to see all the coins on the enemy HI (in multiplayer at least), which can be a big information advantage too.
For ships that can stern turn, I assume that rotation “sweeps” across the playing surface? (and the ship needs a clear path, rather than getting picked up and placed, though the Code mentions the latter under Moving)
The stern turn is written as just a rotation, so you do not get to pick up the ship like with a normal segment. You aren’t able to rotate through things, unless there’s enough clear space to rotate entirely around it in the opposite direction.
Also, do you think the Home Island Raider ability should have been handled differently? Similar to boarding parties, I don’t think it should be the loser’s choice – either have the winner choose, or make it a random coin. Of course, if the winner chooses, then they get to see all the coins on the enemy HI (in multiplayer at least), which can be a big information advantage too.
I think it was designed/written with the standard two-player rules in mind, where all treasure would be face up and visible on home islands, and when played like that it would work fine to let the raider choose what to take. But, like you said, Multiplayer (or two playing using the MP rules) is where it breaks, and why it gets put under the general rule where the person losing the item chooses. Being able to look at everything there could be way too powerful, and would slow the game down if the player using it had to stop and look through/count up everything instead just taking the first good coin they find.
Something in between might be good, where the HI owner would have to reveal a certain number of coins (4 or 5?) and then the raider could pick from those. Maybe with the added restriction that all of the values shown had to be different (if possible), so you couldn’t just flip a bunch of 1s and 2s.
Apologies if I’ve asked this before….
Links
Multiple different crew may be linked to a single ship at once, but each crew can link with only one other crew or ship at a time unless an ability specifically allows additional links to be created.
How many cargo spaces would a ship gain if it carried all three Knights of Malta at once? (Don Rafael Y de Teresa, Roderick the Pure, Benoit de Marseilles)
All three of them link to the other two. The rule seems to imply that a ship would only get +1 cargo from having all three of them – if two link to each other, then the third one is the odd man out. Or, Don links to Roderick and Roderick links to Benoit, but Benoit can’t link to Don?
Also, do Marines stack?
Apologies if I’ve asked this before….
Links
Multiple different crew may be linked to a single ship at once, but each crew can link with only one other crew or ship at a time unless an ability specifically allows additional links to be created.
How many cargo spaces would a ship gain if it carried all three Knights of Malta at once? (Don Rafael Y de Teresa, Roderick the Pure, Benoit de Marseilles)
All three of them link to the other two. The rule seems to imply that a ship would only get +1 cargo from having all three of them – if two link to each other, then the third one is the odd man out. Or, Don links to Roderick and Roderick links to Benoit, but Benoit can’t link to Don?
The links apply in both directions, so two of them would link to each other giving a single +1, and the third would be left out. Essentially, all three could fit into a ship with only two spaces available.
That trio only seems to exist for flavor reasons; I can’t think of any scenario where using all three together on a single ship would be even remotely beneficial. Even putting two of them together is stretch.
Also, do Marines stack?
The no-stacking rule does apply to them so only one could shoot… while on a ship.
The text of the rule does not refer to islands, probably because Marines are the only crew that breaks the normal rule about using abilities there, so multiples on an island could all shoot.
Stern turn of Schooner/Longship/etc: “When given a move action, this ship can rotate on her stern (the rear of the ship) in any direction as an additional, final movement segment.”
Because it says “additional”, does that mean a schooner cannot stern turn as its only move segment of a move action?
I would think they could, but I suppose it’s largely irrelevant either way because a player could move “.1mm” forward to trigger it regardless.
Stern turn of Schooner/Longship/etc: “When given a move action, this ship can rotate on her stern (the rear of the ship) in any direction as an additional, final movement segment.”
Because it says “additional”, does that mean a schooner cannot stern turn as its only move segment of a move action?
I would think they could, but I suppose it’s largely irrelevant either way because a player could move “.1mm” forward to trigger it regardless.
It’s meant to be the same for all ships that can stern turn, even if the wording is slightly different. The “additional” part is really only there to clarify that it counts as a move segment and that it has to come after any others. Like any other ship with multiple segments, you can choose not to use some of them without losing any of the others (or, like you said, use the ones you don’t need to make microscopic length movements).
Filching Gold is worded as a”once per turn”, could it be used like any of the other once per turn abilities like a canceller or a spying ability?
Yes, you can use it outside of your own turn if some other player moves their ship into contact with yours. (You cannot keep reusing it if the ships are already in contact, because it says “touches” rather than “is touching” or “while touching”.)
Does Filching Gold only work right when the ships touch? Or can it be used later in the same action that resulted in them touching?
Ex: If you could use it after someone steals a coin via boarding, to simply take the coin right back.
Is a derelict lost in fog (with no shipwright) still considered a unit in play for the endgame tiebreaker? Technically it could be given an explore (or maybe shoot) action, but since it’s lost forever, it will not ever be able to be given one of the four primary actions. (except in certain strange situations perhaps, such as the game ending with a derelict in a smokebank)
For the terrain that activates when a ship “moves over” it (such as sargasso sea), does that wording include ship parts that can be “over” terrain without physically touching it? (such as galley oars, switchblades, etc.)
If a ship that normally cannot be pinned is rammed by a Sea Monster (which would normally pin it), and then the ability (such as Galley) that grants the “cannot be pinned” is later cancelled, is that ship then considered pinned while the cancellation is active, or does cancelling never cause a pin?
Does Filching Gold only work right when the ships touch? Or can it be used later in the same action that resulted in them touching?
Ex: If you could use it after someone steals a coin via boarding, to simply take the coin right back.
It should be used as close to when the contact first occurs as possible, which in a scenario where a ship rammed another, would be before the boarding occurs.
I can’t think of any timing distinction where it would matter if you do it before or after resolving the ram, but if it did come up somewhere (for a custom or something) technically it would apply first.
Is a derelict lost in fog (with no shipwright) still considered a unit in play for the endgame tiebreaker? Technically it could be given an explore (or maybe shoot) action, but since it’s lost forever, it will not ever be able to be given one of the four primary actions. (except in certain strange situations perhaps, such as the game ending with a derelict in a smokebank)
It still counts as a unit for the owning player when adding up gold and for the tiebreaker. It won’t prevent the endgame trigger because it can’t move on its own, and nothing else can pull it out.
For the terrain that activates when a ship “moves over” it (such as sargasso sea), does that wording include ship parts that can be “over” terrain without physically touching it? (such as galley oars, switchblades, etc.)
Contact must occur. The front-most sail of a standard ship reaching over the top won’t count as touching the terrain either. (The same also applies to docking at islands, unless you’re you’re using 3D terrain and the sail actually does physically touch the island.)
If a ship that normally cannot be pinned is rammed by a Sea Monster (which would normally pin it), and then the ability (such as Galley) that grants the “cannot be pinned” is later cancelled, is that ship then considered pinned while the cancellation is active, or does cancelling never cause a pin?
Cancellation (or the ending of a cancellation) cannot cause a pin on its own. The ability that prevents the pin would have to be shut down when the pin occurs in order for the ship to become pinned, and it would only remain pinned until the cancellation wore off.
Lots of free actions can be triggered from full actions, including multiple free actions resulting from the same initial full action.
There are several types of free actions that won’t trigger other free actions, but some that do.
Can we get a full breakdown of the nuances of free actions and triggers?
Why does UPS work with free explores, but reverse captain can’t trigger off free attacks from a regular captain? If i unload cargo to earn a free S move, can I use an S-Board during that free move?
I’d love a detailed or nuanced analysis of free actions and when they can trigger other abilities.
Lots of free actions can be triggered from full actions, including multiple free actions resulting from the same initial full action.
There are several types of free actions that won’t trigger other free actions, but some that do.
Can we get a full breakdown of the nuances of free actions and triggers?
Why does UPS work with free explores, but reverse captain can’t trigger off free attacks from a regular captain? If i unload cargo to earn a free S move, can I use an S-Board during that free move?
I’d love a detailed or nuanced analysis of free actions and when they can trigger other abilities.
There isn’t a definitive list of all of the different possible triggers and chains, but if you go to the second last page of the Pirate Code there’s an “ACTION LIMIT” section that lists all of the abilities that are restricted from chaining more than once in a turn.
There’s also a “USEFUL LISTS” section a couple pages earlier that gives a detailed rundown of how and when various different free actions occur within a single move or explore action.
Are there any specific combos you’re unsure about?
Mostly just want to know why UPS works when some other things don’t. It feels like #’s 5 & 10 of the explore action should require a full explore, rather than being available on free explore.
Mostly just want to know why UPS works when some other things don’t. It feels like #’s 5 & 10 of the explore action should require a full explore, rather than being available on free explore.
I don’t remember all of the details of what’s in the UPS fleet, but that setup was basically designed to push every limit and exploit every loophole and combo that it possibly could. The problem with shutting down specific parts to stop that fleet is that it would also hurt more “normal” fleets that might otherwise just focus on those specific parts or abilities.
In general, UPS is not something that should be getting used in casual games unless all of the other players are well aware of it ahead of time and have some idea how to deal with it.
The Pirate Code, Icebergs
If an iceberg moves and touches any other object, it stops moving immediately. Unless that object was an island, the iceberg may be moved again at a later time per the standard rules
I take this to mean that an iceberg would stop moving if it came into contact with another piece of terrain, it wouldn’t move over or through that terrain?
The Pirate Code, Icebergs
If an iceberg moves and touches any other object, it stops moving immediately. Unless that object was an island, the iceberg may be moved again at a later time per the standard rules
I take this to mean that an iceberg would stop moving if it came into contact with another piece of terrain, it wouldn’t move over or through that terrain?
That is correct. Terrain can’t overlap, so the iceberg stops as soon as it hits.
Can a stationary ship that is ghostly be boarded?
I always assumed no, but this wording from the Code and a rules question at Discord made me pause.
-The effect of ghostly only applies when the ship is moving. If it stops on terrain, the effects apply normally.
Is that one “effect” (emphasis on the non-plural form) referring to terrain only?
MKL:
A ghostly ship cannot ram or be rammed, pin or be pinned, board or be boarded, and cannot dock, but it may shoot and be shot at normally.
Can a stationary ship that is ghostly be boarded?
I always assumed no, but this wording from the Code and a rules question at Discord made me pause.
-The effect of ghostly only applies when the ship is moving. If it stops on terrain, the effects apply normally.
Is that one “effect” (emphasis on the non-plural form) referring to terrain only?
MKL:
A ghostly ship cannot ram or be rammed, pin or be pinned, board or be boarded, and cannot dock, but it may shoot and be shot at normally.
The part about being able to ignore and pass through terrain, islands, and ships only applies while moving.
The part that prevents ramming, boarding, etc. is always active while the ship is ghostly, whether it’s moving or not.
I assume you cannot ram from this ability?
“Once per turn, this ship can move S after loading cargo.”
-Unless a movement ability specifically states that it is a move action (or “move as a free action”), other abilities and effects (shooting with a Captain, ramming, etc.) that refer to move actions cannot be used.
I assume you cannot ram from this ability?
“Once per turn, this ship can move S after loading cargo.”
Correct. That bonus movement is not part of a move action, even if the loading is caused by one (via an explorer, boarding, etc.).
You can still use most “touch” abilities, though.
Quick question. What direction does a squid (sea monster) face when it moves? Tentacles facing forward or behind?
I assume behind because that’s how squids moving in real life. Plus the white dot to indicate where to start movement is on the base of the squid with the tentacles facing behind.
Quick question. What direction does a squid (sea monster) face when it moves? Tentacles facing forward or behind?
I assume behind because that’s how squids moving in real life. Plus the white dot to indicate where to start movement is on the base of the squid with the tentacles facing behind.
For movement purposes, the “front” is considered the part of the base under the tentacles.
Technically the tentacles would be behind while it’s actually moving, but as soon as it stops it flips them back out in front to grab for things.
If a submerged submarine is wrecked on a reef, is it explorable by players almost like it’s back on the surface?
If a submerged submarine is wrecked on a reef, is it explorable by players almost like it’s back on the surface?
Yes – Wrecks are treated like they sank, so they lose the use of any abilities they may have had, including the ability to submerge (or stay submerged).
Can a Fog Hopper that also has the “Ignores Terrain” ability still fog hop as normal?
If this ship (sea monster) ends her turn in a fog bank, on her next turn she may use her move action to move out of any other fog bank in play.
This ship ignores terrain when she is given a move action (islands are not terrain).
Ex: In the Ability Conflict Hierarchy, it seems like “ignores” is above “may”.
Can a Fog Hopper that also has the “Ignores Terrain” ability still fog hop as normal?
If this ship (sea monster) ends her turn in a fog bank, on her next turn she may use her move action to move out of any other fog bank in play.
This ship ignores terrain when she is given a move action (islands are not terrain).
Ex: In the Ability Conflict Hierarchy, it seems like “ignores” is above “may”.
This entry in the PC has you covered (under the “ignores terrain” ability):
-This ability applies only while the ship is moving, during a move action.
–If this ship stops on or is moved over terrain by some other effect, the terrain effects apply normally.
In other words, as long as the ship stops on the fog bank, it gets “lost” and then can hop.
In other words, as long as the ship stops on the fog bank, it gets “lost” and then can hop.
Understood, so the “movement” of hopping (one fog bank to another) is not considered to be during the move action. (but rather before it starts I suppose) I figured it was, because it says “she may use her move action to move out”.
In other words, “during a move action” would in this case only apply to move segments, rather than the physical act of picking the ship up from one fog bank and placing it at another?
Understood, so the “movement” of hopping (one fog bank to another) is not considered to be during the move action. (but rather before it starts I suppose) I figured it was, because it says “she may use her move action to move out”.
In other words, “during a move action” would in this case only apply to move segments, rather than the physical act of picking the ship up from one fog bank and placing it at another?
Essentially, yes. It actually goes way back to when that terrain ignoring ability first appeared in the game, when the initial interpretation was that it was in effect for the entire move action, which people stretched to include all additional things attached to that move action… like shooting with a captain, which obviously presents some problems.
In the case of fog, when you give the move action you have to establish the ship’s position before you can actually move it, even if it would ignore the terrain after that. The fog hopper ability simply lets you choose which fog bank that position is established at.
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