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  • #9825
    Xerecs
    Moderator

    “JW Darkhurst”

    While I understand your frustration at the Acclamator II’s name origin vs actual ship, what would you suggest that a “carrier” ship even do in this game? How would it/could it work? Since she’s an English ship, I feel that a purely attack-oriented gunship would best represent a class of star destroyer, in this instance.

    I’ll quibble with you on this. It’s not a carrier, it’s a transport, significant difference I think. A carrier implies that it’s carrying other ships, or something along the line. A Venator would be a carrier. The Acclamator II is a transport, which means it’s taking stuff from one place to another, sometimes people, sometimes regular cargo, not other smaller ships.

    Small rant aside, what I think it could do would be either a not as good Dover, or a scaled up Lady Provost. Loose the Battleship keyword, up the cargo to like 5 or 6 (or maybe even 7). Cannons and movement could more or less stay the same.

    Another option is to make it more like the Akua Lapua, but still with lots of cargo, something like this:

    Acclamator II

    Masts: 4

    Cannons: 4S-3S-3S-4S

    Cargo: 6

    Movement: L

    Ability: Crew do not take up cargo space on this ship. This ship may be assigned up to 3 crew.

     

     

    #9826
    Jonathan Bowen
    Participant

    @Xerecs: Ok, I see your point, but at the same time, I was going for the “twin ship” idea with the Acclamator II and the Gladiator II. I can make an accurate Acclamator II for after/between sets; if I keep the stats on this ship, what star destroyer class/star wars ship could I change it’s name to?

    -Darkhurst

    #9827
    Xerecs
    Moderator

    If you like it the way it is, then keep it that way. If you want to you can make a more accurate representation of one using the actual name of an Acclamator II. I’ll help ya find one.

    #9853
    Jonathan Bowen
    Participant

    Hello again, y’all

    Today I bring to you the beginning of the next faction in Eldest Seas: The Cursed
    This post will contain quite a few pieces as there are cases of multiple links. Without further ado, let’s get into The Cursed!

    (keep in mind, a lot of these will probably be changed)

    Relevant Keywords:

    Demon: This piece has the Fear and Eternal keywords. This ship gets +1 to her cannon rolls against any ship.

    Nephilim: This ship gets +1 to her cannon rolls against pieces with the Demon keyword. If this ship is assigned a helmsman crew, she gains +L to her base move instead of +S

    1. Abaddon
    Points: 28
    Masts: 5
    Cannons: 3L, 3S, 3S, 3S, 3L
    Cargo: 5
    Base Move: S+S
    Ability: Demon. When this ship eliminates the last mast on an enemy ship, remove that ship from the game. When this ship reaches her cargo limit, her base move becomes S and cannot be increased.
    Link: Lord Jonathan Morgenstern

    Flavor: Named for the Greater Demon of the Void, Abbadon is a force of death and destruction. Crewed by a ruthless selection of Lord Morgenstern’s followers, this galleon lives up to the myths of her namesake in a terrifyingly accurate manner.

    2. Agramon
    Points: 25
    Masts: 5
    Cannons: 4L, 3S, 3S, 3S, 4L
    Cargo: 4
    Base Move: L
    Ability: Demon. Crew within S+S of this ship cannot use their abilities. (this ship’s crew are unaffected by this ability)
    Link: Lord Jonathan Morgenstern

    Flavor: According to legend, Agramon is a Greater Demon of Fear; an unstoppable being that could cause the bravest of men to freeze in terror. One of Lord Morgenstern’s favored vessels, the mere sight of the Agramon has been known to cause enemy crews to hide below decks or jump ship rather than face the war galleon.

    3. Ravener
    Points: 17
    Masts: 4
    Cannons: 2L, 3S, 3S, 2L
    Cargo: 3
    Base Move: S+S
    Ability: Demon. If this ship wins a boarding party, you may eliminate all of the other ship’s crew or eliminate up to two masts from that ship.
    Link: Lord Jonathan Morgenstern

    Flavor: Manned by a vicious collection of Lord Morgenstern’s followers, the Ravener does best in close quarters combat, allowing her extensive crew to jump ship and wreak havoc upon their victims.

    4.Forsaken
    Points: 14
    Masts: 3 (square)
    Cannons: 3S, 3S, 3S
    Cargo: 3
    Base Move: L
    Ability: Demon. Cannoneer. When this ship’s last mast is eliminated, she sinks.
    Link: Lord Jonathan Morgenstern

    Flavor: Crewed by mortal sailors who have been possessed and cursed by Lord Morgenstern, the Forsaken is a rickety amalgamation of salvaged wrecks; a piece from each boat her crew originally served on.

    5. Alkahest
    Points: 23
    Masts: 4
    Cannons: 4S, 3S, 3S, 4S
    Cargo: 3
    Base Move: S
    Ability: Demon. Limit. Once per turn, choose any one ship or crew ability in play. This piece has that ability for this turn. You may make a different choice each turn. When this ship copies an ability, the piece she’s copying cannot use its ability on its next turn.
    Link: Lord Jonathan Morgenstern

    Flavor: Named for a powerful artifact of dark magic, the Alkahest takes the strength of her enemies and then turns it against them in their powerless state.

    6. Lord Jonathan Morgenstern
    Points: 16
    Ability: Nephilim. Captain. You own any derelict this ship explores; both ships become docked at your home island
    Link: Abbadon; Agramon; Ravener; Forsaken; Alkahest; Christopher Morgenstern.

    Flavor: When Jonathan Morgenstern first allied himself with the Cursed Empire, he was doubted by many. He soon made himself a valuable member of their ranks, bringing with him powerful forces to destroy all who opposed Davy Jones.

    7. Christopher Morgenstern
    Points: 10
    Ability: Demon. Sac.
    Link: Lord Jonathan Morgenstern

    Flavor: Christopher is Jonathan’s son, and is easily more dangerous on his own than even his father. More monster than man, Christopher is a chaotic force of evil that scares even some of Jones’s top lieutenants.

    As you can see, The Cursed are off to an overpowered start 😅😂
    Pieces will be subject to ret-conning and re-pricing as I get feedback and edit suggestions.

    So let me know what you think of these pieces; leave comments, questions and and concerns (I feel like there’ll be a lot of those 😅) and I’ll get back to you as soon as I can

    Until next post;
    -J. W. Darkhurst

    #9854
    Xerecs
    Moderator

    I like the idea of the Alkahest, putting a twist on the copying ability. That said, I think it should be a couple points more, mainly because of the last line of text and the abilities of Demon.

    I think the range of the Agramon’s range should be reduced to a single segment, either L or S. S+S sounds nice, but is tricky to measure, especially if things get cramped and crowded.

    Why does Jonathan Morgenstern have Nephilim? He links to several shihps with the Demon keyword. Thematically to me it doesn’t make sense.

    Looking at what the ships do, I think it would be much more beneficial and perhaps less breaking if the Abbadon didn’t have a large cargo hold, say 3 like the Forsaken.

    Going by Christopher, the Demon keyword is about 7 points, since SAC is 3; is that about right?

     

    I’m loving these new Cursed guys, can’t wait to see the rest.

    #9855
    Jonathan Bowen
    Participant

    @Xerecs: I can make the Alkahest a few more points without problem.

    If I reduce the Agramon’s range it will be to L in order to properly maximize her ability.

    Jonathan Morgenstern has the Nephilim keyword, because the character in the books that he is based on is something of a “fallen good guy”, and therefore would have the abilities/skills of those with Nephilim, while being able to control those with Demon.

    I think that the Abbadon originally had less cargo… I don’t know why it’s so much higher now. Again, I can change that without much issue.

    And the points on Christopher seem accurate to me? Not sure what you’re asking here.

    Glad you’re excited 🙂
    More coming soon

    -Darkhurst

    #9857
    Xerecs
    Moderator

    And the points on Christopher seem accurate to me? Not sure what you’re asking here.

    just tying to confirm the cost of the Demon keyword. Fear isn’t’ very good the way it is worded or the way that WK priced it. I’ve gotten away with it at 1 point a couple times, but I think its worth 2. Eternal had a couple fluctuations in point cost, but it’s a 2 point ability to me. The cannon bonus against any ship is 5, since it’s marginally better than regular world hating.

    That the keyword combines all of these into one means that it should be around 9-10 points on it’s own. My thoughts being that Christopher Morgenstern ought to be 12-13 points.

    #9858
    Jonathan Bowen
    Participant

    @Xerecs: Alright, that makes sense. I can adjust his point cost to be a li’l more accurate.

    Now, back to Eldest Seas, I’ve got two more Cursed pieces for y’all!

    Relevant Keywords:

    Privateer: This piece may use its abilities on any ship, but it gains the Loyal: X keyword for its flag faction.

    EA: Once per turn, roll a d6. On a 5-6, give this ship an extra action.

    8. Ghoullugger
    Points: 2
    Ability: Eternal.

    Flavor: Many question what happens to the poor souls who are fed to The Phantom. Ghoullugger is one of the hundreds of results. A ghostly apparition, imitating his mortal body, he is cursed to serve aboard The Phantom for all eternity.

    9. Brine
    Points: 9
    Ability: Privateer. Captain. EA.

    Flavor: Disturbed by the beliefs and actions of Lord Morgenstern, Brine has secretly begun to seek out allies under different flags who would be willing to both pay him for his services, and ensure his protection from The Cursed Empire’s wrath.

    Short post today, and just crew; but don’t worry, more to come soon.
    Let me know your thoughts on these two pieces, and I’ll be back again soon with the continuation of The Cursed from Eldest Seas

    Until next post;
    -J. W. Darkhurst

    #9860
    Ben
    Keymaster

    Abaddon seems really overpowered.  That removal ability is arguably too good, period.  It makes Oarsman, capturing, towing back home to repair, and Eternal all moot.  I think what happens to the cargo should be specified to avoid confusion (also removed from play?).  The negative ability is not enough to hold the ship back, and I think she should be at least 35 points.

    Crew within S+S of this ship cannot use their abilities. (this ship’s crew are unaffected by this ability)

    I’m pretty sure Woelf said that an L-canceller is broken, and shouldn’t exist.  And that is for the regular canceller ability where you choose one crew or ship ability.  This does all crew?  Even though that includes friendlies, this is beyond broken.  What about limiting it to crew that cost 2 points or less? (though that could be a headache each turn)  I don’t think you need the part in parentheses.

    Ravener
    Points: 17
    Masts: 4
    Cannons: 1L-2S-2S-1L
    Cargo: 3
    Base Move: S+S
    Ability: Eternal.  Fear.  If this ship wins a boarding party, you may eliminate all of the other ship’s crew or eliminate up to two masts from that ship.

    This is essentially what the ship looks like with the Demon keyword applied.  I think it’s pretty clear that she should be more than 17 points, I think at least 20.

    I think the Forsaken could be more expensive as well.  Sinking with the last mast eliminated is basically great due to Eternal – the ship is pretty much impossible to capture, and quite powerful for a 3 master.  That said I don’t think more than 15 or 16 would be necessary.

    Alkahest is cool but extremely powerful.  That’s the perfect weapon to nullify an Acorazado, Endeavour, or Treasure Ship (imagine having to boot a ton of stuff off when the ability gets shut down).  It’s basically a global canceller that can be used as an interrupt to cause mass chaos.  Cargo master would be my target – imagine that getting hit with the Spanish in this year’s CoEC – you’d have to dump dozens of cargo all at once.  To be fair, Treasure Ship and Cargo Master are both somewhat OP in the first place, but this is an ability that is going to get really crazy in actual gameplay.  No idea what the cost should be but I wouldn’t be surprised if 30+ was necessary.

    Christopher should be at least 12.  Fear-2, Eternal-3 (IMO; 2 is okay but keep in mind the keyword is awesome on crew specifically, where it seldom appeared on WK pieces), true World Hater-5 (as Xerecs said), so 10 before Sac is applied.  Sac is worth far more than the 2 that Wizkids priced it at sometimes, but if you cost it “right” and go to ~15, you’ll have two linked crew that total 31 points.  O_O

    Couldn’t Ghoullugger be linked to The Phantom?  Even if there isn’t another version of that ship in this set, it wouldn’t be the first cross-set link.

    Love the flavor text!  Brine is quite interesting and sounds like a story that could play out across multiple sets or campaign games.  (I don’t dislike most of the pieces, they’re just pretty game breaking I think)

    #9861
    Xerecs
    Moderator

    I think what happens to the cargo should be specified to avoid confusion (also removed from play?).

    I don’t think it confusing. If the ship is removed from play, so would the cargo, no questions about where it goes or anything.

     

    I don’t think you need the part in parentheses.

    I agree. Any ability that affects other ships (unless specified) automatically would not affect the ship that is the source of that ability. Regular cancelling for example, you can’t cancel an ability on the ship that has cancelling.

     

    #9862
    Jonathan Bowen
    Participant

    Yeah, no, I know that pretty much everything from that first post is kinda game-breaking 😅😂

    I’m really rather torn on what to do. On the one hand, I really want to keep them with abilities as close to what they say now as possible, but on the other, I want them to be usable and used in games and by other people as well.
    So I’ll likely make changes to their points and abilities to make them a li’l less bjorken than they are now.

    That said, I’m thinking of removing the Demon keyword completely, and just assigning specific crew/ships with Fear, Eternal, or both depending. The cannon bonus would be removed completely, but the ships that would’ve had it will probably still have good cannons (majority 3-2). So many of the concerns with current ships would be semi-fixed. Especially these ones.

    As for Ghoullugger, I hadn’t thought about that link possibility, and what would’ve been my next post was likely gonna explain why. I do have some edit ideas based on him, though, so things’ll probably change.

    That out of the way, I might as well release the next two pieces to help clear up a bit of maybe confusion. So here’s the next two Cursed pieces from Eldest Seas!

    Relevant Keywords

    Living Ship: Once per turn, you may eliminate one of this ship’s crew to give her an extra action. Crew placed on this ship cost no points, but each take up one cargo space and their point cost still counts toward the build total.

    10. The Phantom
    Points: 20
    Masts: 5
    Cannons: 2L, 2S, 2S, 2S, 2L
    Cargo: 6
    Base Move: S+S
    Ability: Living Ship. Ghost Ship. Eternal.
    Link: Captain Shamshere (RoDJ)

    Flavor: Shamshere’s precious Phantom has consumed the souls of so many sailors that she has literally grown. Now a five-mast galleon, The Phantom is a symbol of fear among The Cursed Empire’s forces; to both friend and foe alike.

    11. RNS Endurance
    Points: 16
    Masts: 4
    Cannons: 2S, 2L, 2L, 2S
    Cargo: 4
    Base Move: L
    Ability: This ship gets +1 to her cannon rolls against English ships.

    Flavor: When the RNS Endurance was christened and set out to sail, no one could’ve known how ironic her name would become. Now sailing under the Red Skull of Davy Jones, one could say her name was an appropriate one.

    As you can see, this is why I didn’t link Ghoullugger to The Phantom, even though there was a new version of her. However, I’m not necessarily opposed to removing her Eternal and having another linking crew cover that ability for her. Either way, the most OP pieces should be out of the way now 😅

    So let me know your thoughts on the Phantom and the Endurance! I’ll reply to questions, comments, and other inquiries as soon as I can.

    Until next post;
    -J. W. Darkhurst

    #9863
    Xerecs
    Moderator

    So let me know your thoughts on the Phantom

    I’m flattered that you remade one of my ships, but dude. 0.0 removing Eternal is probably wise, as well as bumping the cost up to around 26-30. The original version of the Phantom probably should have been around 20, and this version takes it up a notch and half$

    Don’t get me wrong, I like this version, but a couple changes need to be made I think.

     

    That said, I’m thinking of removing the Demon keyword completely, and just assigning specific crew/ships with Fear, Eternal, or both depending. The cannon bonus would be removed completely, but the ships that would’ve had it will probably still have good cannons (majority 3-2). So many of the concerns with current ships would be semi-fixed. Especially these ones.

    The cannon bonus especially was the weight behind the Demon keyword, just like with the Makuta keyword I devised. I think following in that logic is wise, as it will keep the ships powerful, but not too overpowered.

    Modifying or doing away with Demon means that parts of the Nephilim keyword will need to be adjusted or modified as well.

     

    Finally, I quite like Brine, an EA captain for the Cursed!

    #9868
    Woelf
    Moderator

    Crew within S+S of this ship cannot use their abilities. (this ship’s crew are unaffected by this ability)

    I’m pretty sure Woelf said that an L-canceller is broken, and shouldn’t exist. And that is for the regular canceller ability where you choose one crew or ship ability. This does all crew?

    This extremely broken, at any price.

    That bubble of protection makes it virtually impossible for another ship to ever hit it first, and there’s almost no way to counteract it. Captains, cancelers, and action generators are gone before they get close enough to do anything. A range extender is pretty much the only way to get a shot, but most ship-based ones are horribly inaccurate (requiring a 6 to hit), and the only reliable way to get Extended Range is to bring a gunzebo. No ability should ever require one or two specific gamepieces to counter it.

    #9869
    Xerecs
    Moderator

    Suppose the ability was changed to either match or resemble the ability of The Kraken, or Cursed Captain Jack. Would it be less broken then?

    #9870
    Jonathan Bowen
    Participant

    Alright, I’m back to edit some things and release the next two Cursed pieces!

    So right off the bat, I think I can change some of the broken pieces from the big post
    Here are my edit ideas:

    Abbadon
    Points: 30
    Masts: 5
    Cannons: 3L,3S,3S,3S,3L
    Cargo: 3
    Base Move: S+S
    Ability: Eternal. Fear. When this ship eliminates the last mast on an enemy ship, that ship sinks. When this ship reaches her cargo limit, her base move becomes S and cannot be increased.
    Link: Lord Jonathan Morgenstern

    Agramon
    Points:
    Masts: 5
    Cannons: 4L,3S,3S,3S,4L
    Cargo: 4
    Base Move: L
    Ability: Eternal. Once per turn, pick one ship with in L/S of this ship. That ship’s crew cannot use their abilities for this turn.
    Link: Lord Jonathan Morgenstern

    Ravener
    Points: 18
    Masts: 3
    Cannons: 2S,3L,3L,2S
    Cargo: 3
    Base Move: S+S
    Ability: Fear. Eternal. If this ship wins a boarding party, you may eliminate all of the other ship’s crew or eliminate up to two masts from that ship.
    Link: Lord Jonathan Morgenstern

    Forsaken
    Points: 16
    Masts: 3
    Cannons: 3L,3L,3L
    Cargo: 3
    Base Move: L
    Ability: Fear. Cannoneer. When this ship’s last mast is eliminated, she sinks.
    Link: Lord Jonathan Morgenstern

    Alkahest
    Points: 30
    Masts: 4
    Cannons: 4S,4S,4S,4S
    Cargo: 3
    Base Move: L
    Ability: Limit. Fear. Once per turn, choose any one ship or crew ability in play. This piece has that ability for this turn. You may make a different choice each turn. When this ship copies an ability, the piece she’s copying cannot use its ability on its next turn.
    Link:

    The Phantom
    Points: 30
    Masts: 5
    Cannons: 2L,2S,2S,2S,2L
    Cargo: 6
    Base Move: S+S
    Ability: Living Ship. Ghost Ship.
    Link: Captain Shamshere; Ghoullugger.

    Christopher Morgenstern
    Points: 6
    Ability: Fear. Sac.
    Link: Lord Jonathan Morgenstern

    Also edited:

    Nephilim: When this ship is assigned a Helmsman crew, she gets +L to her base move instead of +S

    Now that that’s out of the way, on to the next two Cursed pieces from Eldest Seas!
    (a couple of gimmicky abilities here, so be prepared)

    12. Lilith
    Points: 12
    Ability: Loyal: The Cursed. When this crew is face up, Cursed ships/all ships in your fleet gain the Eternal and Fear keywords.

    Flavor: The spawn of the Witch Queen, and mother to all demons, Lilith has decided to come forth from the shadows, and assist her brethren however she can.

    13. Ryuk
    Points: 16
    Masts: 2
    Cannons: 5S, 5S
    Cargo: 4
    Base Move: S
    Ability: Once per turn, give this ship a move action, but do not move her. Instead, select one crew assigned to this ship, and one crew with the same ability on any other ship in play. Both crew are eliminated from the game.

    Flavor: The Ryuk’s captain is said to be able to kill a man just by saying his name. However, he tends to neglect telling his crew that they serve as the payment source for this power.

    I’m trying to decide which version of Lilith’s ability to go with. The specification in the first one seems pointless except in a mixed fleet game, but also keeps her ability from being abused if she’s captured by another faction via Nemo or tow. And the Ryuk’s ability would require crew to have the exact same ability text. This would be where Loyal: X and Hostile: X can affect gameplay. However, I would think that Captain and “This ship may move and shoot using the same move action” would count as the same thing. (I know that sounds contradictory to the first statement I had on this ability, but to me, it makes sense)

    Anyway, let me know what you think of these pieces and the edits. Comments, questions and concerns will be answered in my next post (which will be as soon as I can post).

    Until then;
    -J. W. Darkhurst

    #9871
    Xerecs
    Moderator

    I like most of the edits to the previously posted ships, but i would still like to see a larger cargo hold on the Ravener. 😀

    Either version of Lilith is beyond powerful. I’ve seen and experienced firsthand how giving all ships a keyword or two can affect game-play, especially in campaigns. I think you might be better off making her like Roberto Santana, choosing one ship to give her bonus or whatever to. Linking the ability to die rolling might also help.

     

    the Ryuk’s ability would require crew to have the exact same ability text. This would be where Loyal: X and Hostile: X can affect gameplay. However, I would think that Captain and “This ship may move and shoot using the same move action” would count as the same thing.

    Dude. The Captain keyword is treated the same as having it spelled out. So a crew that has ‘Captain’ as it’s only ability is treated exactly the same as a crew that has “This ship may move and shoot in the same move action.” So any generic ability that was turned into a keyword, like most generic crew abilities are still the same and treated the same as the versions that are spelled out.

    Anyway, the Ryuk is interesting, disabling generic crew if done correctly or at the right time can have a HUGE impact on a turn or a sequence in a game.

    #9872
    Jonathan Bowen
    Participant

    @Xerecs: My concern with contradictions is the “exact wording” part.
    SOMEONE will be like: “This one says Captain; and that one doesn’t” (no one here; but someone, somewhere would)

    I feel like the faction specification in Lilith’s ability might hinder the power a little more than what you may be implying, since only Cursed ships will be getting the keywords. However, I do know that mixed-nationality fleets is really something that isn’t done as often among most of the members here, as we do it. I could limit her ability to just one keyword instead of both?
    Either way, she’s a potentially powerful crew, and will be made a target by whoever her controller is playing against. And I don’t want to add too much extra die-rolling as that has been a concern with my customs in the past, and just another Santana crew, even if it is for The Cursed would seem kinda boring to me.
    Something’ll be figured out

    -Darkhurst

    #9873
    Xerecs
    Moderator

    SOMEONE will be like: “This one says Captain; and that one doesn’t” (no one here; but someone, somewhere would)

    The people that use customs regularly are you, me, Gingerninja, and Ben. I’ve not head of many other people using custom ships, much less ones that we’ve made. I understand your concern, but the people who will ACTUALLY USE THIS SHIP will understand what you mean.

    Since she’s mentioned in the flavor text, I’ll compare her to her; Salem has a similar ability, it affects only Sea Monsters, but it gives all of them Fear. Normally I wouldn’t think it is such a big deal, but recall the 2017 game, with all the monsters concentrated in one area, each rolling for Fear for multiple ships. Evey target ship was hit with BOTH outcomes of Fear. Do you see my point?

    I like the idea of her doing something like that, but I would recommend that she be modified to this:

    Lilith
    Points: ~12-13
    Ability: Loyal: Cursed. Hostile: Non-Cursed. LIMIT. Once per turn choose one friendly ship in play, that ship has the Eternal keyword until the beginning of your next turn. Once per turn give one friendly ship +1 to her cannon rolls for this turn.

    #9874
    Ben
    Keymaster

    I think you might be better off making her like Roberto Santana, choosing one ship to give her bonus or whatever to.

    Indeed.  Anything that gives a bonus to ALL ships in your fleet is usually OP by default.  I think you could also make it affect a specific number of ships, such as a maximum of 3 friendly Cursed ships. (when you reveal the crew, or simply from the start of gameplay if you wanted her to start the game face up)

    I could limit her ability to just one keyword instead of both?

    I don’t think that’s enough, simply because it’s still effectively unlimited.  Cargo Master is OP because there’s no cap on it.  I can certainly imagine a submerged sea monster squadron in next year’s CoEC swarming around with Fear getting rolled for dozens of times each turn.

    Normally I wouldn’t think it is such a big deal, but recall the 2017 game, with all the monsters concentrated in one area, each rolling for Fear for multiple ships. Evey target ship was hit with BOTH outcomes of Fear. Do you see my point?

    O_O  And I wrote that before even seeing this comment!  XD   Xerecs’ suggestion would work, though if you want to keep it more similar, I think giving Eternal+Fear to a max of 3 Cursed ships would work too.  (and theoretically that cost is in line with 12, since if Eternal and Fear generally come to 4 points combined (maybe 5 but Fear could be 1), 4×3 ships would be the 12 points)

    The edits definitely help curb the Cursed craziness.  🙂  If you’re looking for a point cost on the Agramon, I think 30 would be a minimum place to start at.  Assuming the cancellation can occur on an enemy turn as soon as their ship moves into range.

    I think the Ryuk’s ability text is fine.

    #9879
    Xerecs
    Moderator

    I maintain that changing the ability of the Agramon to more resemble that of one of the two Kraken’s or Cursed Captain Jack would be better.

    “A7xfanben”

    If you’re looking for a point cost on the Agramon, I think 30 would be a minimum place to start at.

    The one from his fist post had a point cost of 25. With the original ability that’s under-costed and OP somewhat. If changed to my suggestion, or heck, even regular cancelling I think high 20’s for a point cost would be fine.

    #9880
    Jonathan Bowen
    Participant

    Alright, I hear you all about Lilith.
    How’s this for an edited version of her:

    12. Lilith
    Points: 13/14
    Ability: Loyal: The Cursed. (Eternal.) Once per turn, you may choose one friendly ship in play. That ship cannot be affected by the Fear keyword for this turn. Once per turn, give one friendly ship +1 to her cannon rolls for this turn.

    I just thought of the Fear immunity as something less repeated than Santana’s ability to use, and since Fear doesn’t work as often as we wish it did, I figure it’s worth it as an ability idea. I’m also on the fence about the Eternal; might drop that from her.

    Also, I think we could playtest the Agramon starting at 30 points, and see where that gets us.

    I’ll post again with the next two Cursed pieces when the sun is up; I’m ded      😛

    -Darkhurst

    #9881
    Ben
    Keymaster

    Lilith
    Points: 13/14
    Ability: Loyal: The Cursed. (Eternal.) Once per turn, you may choose one friendly ship in play. That ship cannot be affected by the Fear keyword for this turn. Once per turn, give one friendly ship +1 to her cannon rolls for this turn.

    This actually seems too expensive.  I don’t see that Fear immunity being worth more than 2 points, so I think this version could be 11 points even with Eternal.

    #9882
    Woelf
    Moderator

    @Xerecs

    Suppose the ability was changed to either match or resemble the ability of The Kraken, or Cursed Captain Jack. Would it be less broken then?

    It would be less broken, but could still get ugly on turns when the roll hit – and rerollers would make it that much more dangerous.

    @Jonathan Bowen

    Agramon
    Points:
    Ability: Eternal. Once per turn, pick one ship with in L/S of this ship. That ship’s crew cannot use their abilities for this turn.

    Did you have an estimate for this ability cost? Anything less than double digits would be too low, considering it’s worth more than two standard cancelers.

    13. Ryuk
    Points: 16
    Ability: Once per turn, give this ship a move action, but do not move her. Instead, select one crew assigned to this ship, and one crew with the same ability on any other ship in play. Both crew are eliminated from the game.

    This may work in a standard game where the 40-point total is a limiting factor, but as soon as that increases this becomes a problem, and it gets progressively worse the higher the total gets. It would be really easy to leave this parked at your home island with a stack of assorted crew on the island, waiting to pick off whatever will be most damaging to an opponent. It’s essentially a super Duel that doesn’t care about points or die rolls, and can be reused until you run out of crew or targets.

    Basing it on abilities* is especially problematic for the named crew with multiple common abilities. A 5-point Captain+Helmsman can be taken out by a 2-point generic Helmsman, a 10-pointer like Barbarossa or Dragon Eyes can be taken out for only 3, or a cargo-adder like Bianco can be taken out by an Oarsman – and there’s no way to prevent any of it.

    *The same rules used for the no-stacking rule would apply. Abilities that are functionally the same are considered the same, even if the text is slightly different.

    #9885
    Jonathan Bowen
    Participant

    @Woelf: I imagined that in order for the Ryuk to eliminate a crew they must have the exact same ability text. So you can’t just kill a Captain+Helmsman crew using only one of those generic abilities, since that’s only half of the Cap+Helm ability text. You would actually have to sacrifice a Cap+Helm combo to kill a Cap+Helm combo with this ship. Same for other combo crew. If there’s a better way to word the ability so this carries through more easily, I can adjust it to that.

    And for the Agramon, I was thinking of playtesting her around 30 to start with.

    -Darkhurst

    #9886
    Jonathan Bowen
    Participant

    Alright, I said I’d have them so here they are: the next two Cursed pieces from Eldest Seas!

    Relevant Keywords

    Crew Possession: If an enemy ship is within S of this ship, you can use this ship’s action for the turn to try to possess a target crew on that ship. Roll a d6; on a result of 6, the target is immediately assigned to this ship. Its nationality changes to match the nationality of this ship.

    14. Eternal Curse
    Points: 18
    Masts: 4
    Cannons: 2L, 2L, 2L, 2L
    Cargo: 4
    Base Move: S+S
    Ability: Sac. When this ship sinks another ship, you may repair one of this ship’s masts as a free action.
    Link: Aiestel

    Flavor: The vessel created by the dark god, Aiestel, is a dangerous force that only grows stronger with each ship she sinks.

    15. Aiestel
    Points: 11
    Ability: Eternal. Fear. Crew Possession.
    Link: Eternal Curse

    Flavor: The embodiment of a dark, ancient god, Aiestel has allied with Davy Jones not as a path to power, but to entertain his endless boredom.

    I know, looking at it now, that the Eternal Curse is probably either too good, or too cheap and that can be changed; I just wanted to share the original drafts before editing too much.
    So let me know what you think of these two, and I’ll respond to questions, comments, and concerns as soon as I can

    Until next post;
    -J. W. Darkhurst

    #9887
    Xerecs
    Moderator

    Yay, Aistel has appeared! I’m not sure if he’s overcosted or not, since Papa Doc the original crew possessor is 8 points, but could be too expensive himself. That’s one of those discussions I’m not as up to date on. If the CP ability is okay at 8 then Aistel might be fine, since Eternal=2 points and Fear=1-2 points.

    Eternal Curse looks verrrry good. I’d use this ship. I don’t think her point cost is too low, nor too high. SAC is a very good ability and worth 3 points when on a crew. When built into a ship it’s a little more difficult to tackle and track.

    The secondary ability of the Curse is not worth all that much, at least according to WK, who put it around 1-2 points.

    #9895
    Ben
    Keymaster

    The ability text for Ryuk could be: “Instead, select one crew assigned to this ship, and one crew with the exact same abilities on any other ship in play.”  Not that it helps much.  As Woelf said, you could just sit at home and start picking off enemy captains right before they fight your own battle squadron.

    I do think Eternal Curse could be 1-2 points more expensive.  The Diamond Strike has Sac built-in and essentially has 2S cannons with her ability.  This ship is faster with better cannon ranges, in addition to her other ability.

    SAC is a very good ability and worth 3 points when on a crew.

    It’s pretty much objectively worth more than that, Wizkids just never priced it correctly.

    On the other hand, Possession is rather terrible and almost always ineffective.  I cut the cost to 4 for my customs, which I think is fair.  (less than 3 is probably not enough)  I like Eternal at 3 so Aiestel would be cool at 9.

    #9901
    Jonathan Bowen
    Participant

    @Ben: I like that wording, and I can adjust it to be more like that.
    This’ll sound like a rant, but I’m just trying to explain this ship’s ability completely so there’s no more confusion.

    The thing with the Ryuk’s ability, is that the ability text of the crew you’re going to eliminate has to match exactly with the crew that’s going to be sacrificed on the Ryuk. If you target a generic enemy captain, then a generic captain on the Ryuk dies as well. Combo or named crew like Victor de Alva, or Chief PO Charles Richard can’t be targeted unless there’s a crew on the Ryuk with “Loyal: Spain. Captain. Once per turn, roll a d6. on a 5 or 6, this ship may be given an extra action” or “World-Hater.” abbreviated in keyword shorthand, or spelled out. In order to kill De Alva, there must be a crew aboard the Ryuk with “Loyal: Spain. Captain. EA.” as the ability text. The only exception I could see with the ability text match is the difference between Keyword abbreviations and spelled out abilities, like “EA” vs “Once per turn, roll a d6. on a 5 or 6, this ship may be given an extra action” since it’s the same ability, just spelled differently. But you can’t sac a generic captain to kill Commodore Peregrine stern because Captain is only a fraction of his ability, and not his full ability.
    And while you could pick off enemy captains before they attack you, that means that you’re eliminating your own captains as well. In the situation of a standard 40 point game, that tactic is only reasonably usable once. Even in campaign games, where there is no real point limit after setup, it would still be expensive to be constantly buying the same crew over and over again without actually using them. And since it’s only once per turn, a large squad of ships could “outrun” the ability and capture or sink the Ryuk. Moreover, ships with Captain built in (yes, they’re rather uncommon) would be immune to that attack since their captain isn’t a crew. they could lose other crew, but would retain the captain ability. This also makes it convenient to use combo crew, as it would force your opponent to target a less crucial crew, or sacrifice a good grew on their end to damage your fleet/ship.

    By now I know that the Ryuk’s ability is probably understood, but I just want to put this out there so there’s no question about it.

    If the ability is still confusing in any way, for the sake of time and releasing the rest of the set, I can skip the Ryuk and come back to her after the rest of Eldest Seas has been posted.

    -Darkhurst

    #9933
    Jonathan Bowen
    Participant

    Alright, I’m back today with the next two Cursed pieces from Eldest Seas.

    Relevant keyword

    HI-Raider: This ship may dock at an enemy Home Island and load one treasure. If able, she must leave on her next turn.

    16. Marra
    Points: 11
    Masts: 1
    Cannons: 3S
    Cargo: 1
    Base Move: L+L
    Ability: Once at the beginning of each of your turns for every enemy ship within L, roll a d6. On a 3-4 the target ships base move is reduced to S until the beginning of your next turn. On a 5-6 none of the targets crew or ship abilities may be used until the beginning of your next turn.

    Flavor: The crew of the Marra feed off of fear they create in others, and rarely kill any of the sailors they encounter, preferring to keep them alive as a source of food until they die of terror.

    17. Blue Blood
    Points: 13
    Masts: 3 (square)
    Cannons: 4S, 5S, 4S
    Cargo: 4
    Base Move: S+L
    Ability: HI-Raider. This ship gets +1 to her boarding rolls against English ships.

    Flavor: The Blue Blood was a pirate ship whose captain fiercely hated, and therefore targeted, the private vessels of English Lords and Nobles. Davy Jones raised her and reanimated her crew, giving them an eternity to wreak havoc upon the pompous English Lords.

    So, as usual, let me know what y’all think of these two pieces. I’ll respond to any questions, comments, or concerns as soon as I can.

    Until next post;
    -J. W. Darkhurst

    #9934
    Ben
    Keymaster

    At this point I think I’d have to see the Ryuk in play to form a better opinion of the ship.

    Marra is impressive, though I think the ability should say “within L of this ship” so there’s no confusion.  I would probably want her towing a flotilla as part of a battle squadron.

    Great flavor text for the Blue Blood, and seems like the right cost too.

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