Rules for Thought #21 – Turn order based on Points used

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This topic contains 6 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Ed 2 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #3947

    Ben
    Keymaster

    Now that the Rules survey has some results (37 responses as of this post), I think it would be a good idea to discuss some various options in detail.

    Are there any other ways to determine player order that you use/prefer?

    First player goes to person with lowest fleet cost (didn’t use all points to build fleet).

    In one way I like this idea – it takes the luck out of going first or second.  However, I feel it could become a gamey “race to the bottom” as Woelf might say.  Knowing this could influence the fleet building process, which could involve bickering, lying, bluffing, and compromise.  It would also be interesting to see if people were willing to cut out an essential helmsman or other cheap crew in order to try and go first.  Sadly the lack of balance also means you could make a 30 point fleet with OP game pieces more competitive than some 40 point fleets.  In multiplayer I think it could be intense in a competitive group.  I’d probably be one to just use all the points to have a maxed out fleet.  I assume that in multiplayer, turn order could go in lowest cost order (meaning with 36/37/40 point fleets, the 37 would go before the 40 player regardless of where they are sitting).

    Thoughts?

    #3949

    Jack
    Participant

    I think that the setup is fair as is, with player 2 picking player 1’s island first. I actually often feel like choosing your opponent’s HI first is more powerful

    #4032

    Ed
    Participant

    I would accept it as a varient rule but it would become a race to the bottom eventually 39 would be better than 40.also I agree that choosing their HI is potentially better than going 1st.

    #4166

    Woelf
    Participant

    Second day in a row without this site being auto-blocked by our IT system, so let’s see if it holds up…

    Are there any other ways to determine player order that you use/prefer?

    First player goes to person with lowest fleet cost (didn’t use all points to build fleet).

    In one way I like this idea – it takes the luck out of going first or second. However, I feel it could become a gamey “race to the bottom” as Woelf might say. Knowing this could influence the fleet building process, which could involve bickering, lying, bluffing, and compromise. It would also be interesting to see if people were willing to cut out an essential helmsman or other cheap crew in order to try and go first. Sadly the lack of balance also means you could make a 30 point fleet with OP game pieces more competitive than some 40 point fleets. In multiplayer I think it could be intense in a competitive group. I’d probably be one to just use all the points to have a maxed out fleet. I assume that in multiplayer, turn order could go in lowest cost order (meaning with 36/37/40 point fleets, the 37 would go before the 40 player regardless of where they are sitting).

    Thoughts?

    I think any system that gives players control over the starting turn order is asking for trouble. Whether it’s determined by points used/remaining, the number of ships/crew used, ship sizes, cargo spaces, or any other arbitrary factor, any interesting fleet design choices will quickly give way to gaming the system for advantage. If anything, it would make fleet designs less interesting because there would be that much less incentive to use the countless items that aren’t quite top-tier. Brutal efficiency would become even more critical, and instead of using a few leftover points to upgrade a ship to something slightly more expensive but far more interesting, or using those points to add/upgrade a fun named crew, those points would just get dropped entirely for the bonus of maybe going first.

    Then things can get weird with both/all players squeezing out the same number of points. If everyone happens to cut 6 points from their fleets you’re basically right back to where you started, and you’ll once again need a way to determine who goes first.

    It may not really work with this game, but I do like the idea of a variable turn order system. It could be as simple as each player putting a marker in a bag and drawing them one at a time to see what order they use each turn. Even simpler would be to have everyone roll a couple dice, and the highest goes first in a given round. Essentially that’s an “initiative” system, and maybe that’s one way to give players some influence over the order. Rather than basing it on point costs, players could get a bonus to their initiative roll by including certain crew in their fleets — it could be added to some existing crew, or even a new 0LR crew could be created to give an initiative boost.

    #4167

    Jack
    Participant

    I think turn order being variable would make the game way too luck-driven. What I do like is Ben’s “return fire” idea as well as wind. Return fire mitigates the advantage of going first (and probably getting the first shot) as there’s a simultaneous fire going on. And wind means that just because you’re going first doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to reach the islands first.

    #4176

    Ben
    Keymaster

    It may not really work with this game, but I do like the idea of a variable turn order system.

    I do like how it could make things less predictable, but I think it could give rise to some OP situations.  I’m thinking of a player going last on one round, then first in the next round to essentially have a double turn.  Imagine that with Saccing – 4 consecutive actions from a monster gunship could end the game without input/counters from the other players.

    What I do like is Ben’s “return fire” idea as well as wind.

    Not sure if you got that from the Rules Survey, but I was not nearly the first to talk about return fire in this game.  It was probably discussed as a house rule in 2004 before CC came out (BGG forums may have something on it).  I want to say my first exposure to the return fire idea was from this classic thread from 2013 started by lord_denton.

    It does make sense that things get muddled a bit in terms of original ideas/etc.  I think and hope I’ve done a good enough job giving others credit (cannonfury for the EE rules, etc).

    I personally think wind would be both easier to implement and cause less ability/rules headaches than return fire, but I haven’t tested either enough to know for sure.

    #4177

    Ed
    Participant

    Ive been reading over CAGway bay rules and the idea of return fire has been growing on me, and you do a fantastic job of giving credit where it is due!

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