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If you copy Sea Dragon to a Titan, can the Titan make swoop attacks? The Sea Dragon keyword mentions “base”, which a Titan might not have (unless it would be considered where it touches the water for copying purposes).
In addition, if you copied Sea Dragon to a ship, would that then be considered a sea creature and not be able to have crew assigned to it?
If you copy Sea Dragon to a Titan, can the Titan make swoop attacks? The Sea Dragon keyword mentions “base”, which a Titan might not have (unless it would be considered where it touches the water for copying purposes).
In addition, if you copied Sea Dragon to a ship, would that then be considered a sea creature and not be able to have crew assigned to it?
The TL;DR answer to both is no.
These fall under a combination of the general Keywords vs. Shipwright rules and some of the more detailed bits that fell onto the second page of the Copy ability section. Copying a keyword doesn’t change a ship’s type, and the swoop attack part of the Sea Dragon keyword specifically refers to “a sea dragon” (as opposed to “this ship”), so it can only be used by a sea dragon.
Likewise, copying any of the various sea creature keywords onto a normal ship doesn’t make it a sea creature, so the “no crew” restriction will not apply.
You can still copy any of the sea creature keywords, but because they’re all worded specifically for their type they’re going be functionally useless on any other ship, including other (different) sea creatures.
Regarding the Davy Jones’ Key UT: “Swap Davy Jones’ Key with one face-down treasure on any other wild island.”
-I assume it’s revealed when found? Or can you do a covert swap? Is it placed face down on the island it gets put on?
-If it’s the last coin in play and there is no swap to be made, is it loaded onto the ship?
-What happens if the final two coins in play are both Keys? Whenever one is found, it gets swapped back and forth with the other in a loop.
Can you start the game with ships at your home island touching?
What happens if an oared ship is docked at a player’s home island such that no ship can touch its bow? Is the ship uncaptureable? (could see this as a niche “stalemate” issue with Wolves in play, no way to eliminate it, and no way for one player to eliminate the other if their last ship cannot be captured/sunk)
In a multiplayer game, which opponent chooses the tied island for the Message in a Bottle UT? (“Immediately dock this ship at the wild island with the fewest treasure coins on it. If there is a tie, your opponent chooses which tied island this ship docks at.”)
Regarding the Davy Jones’ Key UT: “Swap Davy Jones’ Key with one face-down treasure on any other wild island.”
-I assume it’s revealed when found? Or can you do a covert swap? Is it placed face down on the island it gets put on?
-If it’s the last coin in play and there is no swap to be made, is it loaded onto the ship?
-What happens if the final two coins in play are both Keys? Whenever one is found, it gets swapped back and forth with the other in a loop
The Key does have to be revealed when found, and remains face up after the swap. If you swapped it for another Key, you’d reveal that one too, then immediately swap it for some other face-down treasure. Repeat until you get a non-Key or run out of face down treasures to swap.
Once it’s face up, it won’t prevent the game from ending because it has no gold value.
Can you start the game with ships at your home island touching?
The physical ships can be touching, and might have to be because of lack of space, but for gameplay/rules purposes they are only considered to be touching the island at that point.
What happens if an oared ship is docked at a player’s home island such that no ship can touch its bow? Is the ship uncaptureable? (could see this as a niche “stalemate” issue with Wolves in play, no way to eliminate it, and no way for one player to eliminate the other if their last ship cannot be captured/sunk)
This would fall under a similar ruling to the one for towing when there isn’t physical space available to place the towed ship, or pinning when a ship’s front mast is removed or repaired. As long as no other ships are blocking the movement, the oared ship is actually capturable (no oarsman, etc.), and the ship attempting to tow it would have enough movement to reach the bow, you can move it in as close as possible and state the you’re towing it. The oars aren’t meant to be a physical barrier of shield of any kind.
That being side, I’m not sure of what scenario could come up where this would actually matter, outside of a player purposely trying to stall the game. If it’s sitting at its own home island, it can be repaired. If it’s at an opposing home island (after a failed raid?) and can still move away using the oar power, it must. Either way, if that’s the only ship the player has left, their opponent(s) can ignore it and just go around gathering up every other last bit of treasure they can get.
If Wolves are on an island and no one has a Musketeer or Marine left in play, any other gold on that island is considered unavailable and will not prevent the “all available gold” endgame condition.
In a multiplayer game, which opponent chooses the tied island for the Message in a Bottle UT? (“Immediately dock this ship at the wild island with the fewest treasure coins on it. If there is a tie, your opponent chooses which tied island this ship docks at.”)
The next player in turn order chooses, unless players agreed on someone else ahead of time. Regardless of who actually picks, the other players are of course free to give “advice”.
If a ghostly ship is moved by an outside force into a fog bank, does the resetting of Ghost Ship (since it doesn’t seem to be a “continuously active” ability) cause the ship to become lost in the fog bank before the controlling player can “ghost” out of it and ignore the fog bank?
If a ghostly ship is moved by an outside force into a fog bank, does the resetting of Ghost Ship (since it doesn’t seem to be a “continuously active” ability) cause the ship to become lost in the fog bank before the controlling player can “ghost” out of it and ignore the fog bank?
Ghost ship’s terrain ignoring effect only applies when moving, so as soon as it stops on the fog it becomes “lost” like any other ship would, regardless of how it was moved there. When the ship’s owner’s turn comes back around, if they give it a move action, it exits normally (roll & place) whether they turn ghostly on or not.
If they do turn ghostly on again, after placing the ship on the edge of the fog it could immediately double-back over the top without falling back in, unless it stops on it again.
Activating ghostly while already in a fog bank won’t do anything on its own. The ship remains “lost” until it moves.
If PotC Davy Jones declares “no target” for a previously activated kraken, does that still use the ship’s action for the turn?
Is the ship’s action for the turn used if the targeting ability is used and then cancelled after someone declares a target? (the kraken benefit is lost either way, but I assume DJ’s ship gets the action back?)
If PotC Davy Jones declares “no target” for a previously activated kraken, does that still use the ship’s action for the turn?
Changing the target, even just to remove the target, requires the full action.
Is the ship’s action for the turn used if the targeting ability is used and then cancelled after someone declares a target? (the kraken benefit is lost either way, but I assume DJ’s ship gets the action back?)
The targeting ability acts as a toggle for the Kraken/Octopus, so once you’ve spent the action and picked a target, cancelling DJ’s ability won’t take it away or give the action back. (It would be like trying to cancel an extra action ability after the action had already been used; you technically can, but it won’t alter what’s already happened.)
Cancelling Kraken/Octopus directly would take away the bonus movement and the target restriction for the turn, but it stays toggled, so they’d apply normally again as soon as the cancellation wore off at the end of the turn.
On a related note, for win condition #3 on page 14, can the phrase “a player” mean the opposing player, or does every “his/her/player” reference in that sentence specifically reference the active player’s turn and no opponents?
That applies only to the current/active player’s own turn. If some other player gets wiped out in between, the endgame condition doesn’t trigger until their turn starts.
Just to make sure I understand: For example, in a 7 player game where 4 players must be “eliminated” to trigger the “half or more” rule. Players 5-7 are already out. Another round starts, and Player 1 eliminates Player 4. Players 2 and 3 then take their full turns, and the game doesn’t end until Player 4’s next “turn” comes around?
Some fort wording minutiae:
“-An island with a fort is still considered a wild island for the purposes of all other abilities and effects.”
“-If treasure remains on wild islands but cannot be loaded by any player due to an ability or some other effect, that gold is no longer considered “available” and will not prevent this end condition.”
My understanding is that fort gold is available gold, but this seems to contradict that because ships cannot dock at or explore islands that have opposing forts on them. Is it just a quirk of how the rules or Code are worded?
I assume you must build sea creatures in a configuration that matches their deckplate cannons? For example, Calim has two 2S segments and three 4S’s. They can physically be placed so that you could have a 2S in slots 1 and 4 or 2 and 5 (looking top down left to right/etc), but is this illegal?
Just to make sure I understand: For example, in a 7 player game where 4 players must be “eliminated” to trigger the “half or more” rule. Players 5-7 are already out. Another round starts, and Player 1 eliminates Player 4. Players 2 and 3 then take their full turns, and the game doesn’t end until Player 4’s next “turn” comes around?
I wasn’t as clear as I should have been earlier, or maybe I misspoke. It is worded slightly different with two players versus more players.
With only two players, it doesn’t end until the eliminated player would start their own turn.
With more players, it ends at the start of any player’s turn after the minimum number of players have been eliminated. It doesn’t have to be the start of an eliminated player’s turn.
Functionally it still amounts to almost the same thing. The current/active player still gets to finish their own turn before the game would actually end; it doesn’t end the instant enough other players have been eliminated.
Some fort wording minutiae:
“-An island with a fort is still considered a wild island for the purposes of all other abilities and effects.”
“-If treasure remains on wild islands but cannot be loaded by any player due to an ability or some other effect, that gold is no longer considered “available” and will not prevent this end condition.”
My understanding is that fort gold is available gold, but this seems to contradict that because ships cannot dock at or explore islands that have opposing forts on them. Is it just a quirk of how the rules or Code are worded?
Gold in a fort is always considered available with regards to the endgame condition because forts can be destroyed by any opposing ship, allowing the treasure inside to be loaded normally again.
Contrast that with something like Wolves, which prevents loading the treasure unless someone has one of the highly-specific means of getting rid of the wolves; if no one has that, there’s no possible way for anyone to get to that treasure, so it’s effectively out of play.
I assume you must build sea creatures in a configuration that matches their deckplate cannons? For example, Calim has two 2S segments and three 4S’s. They can physically be placed so that you could have a 2S in slots 1 and 4 or 2 and 5 (looking top down left to right/etc), but is this illegal?
They should be built in the correct positions/configuration whenever possible. Switching them around would be like rearranging the masts on a standard ship.
With only two players, it doesn’t end until the eliminated player would start their own turn.
With more players, it ends at the start of any player’s turn after the minimum number of players have been eliminated. It doesn’t have to be the start of an eliminated player’s turn.
Functionally it still amounts to almost the same thing. The current/active player still gets to finish their own turn before the game would actually end; it doesn’t end the instant enough other players have been eliminated.
Makes sense! Thanks for all the answers lately, it’s been very helpful.
I think part of the confusion stems from the Combined Set rules, which state “The game ends immediately…”, which seems to contradict what the Code says.
Makes sense! Thanks for all the answers lately, it’s been very helpful.
I think part of the confusion stems from the Combined Set rules, which state “The game ends immediately…”, which seems to contradict what the Code says.
You’re welcome!
I saw your post over on BGG about that too. That looks like just a side effect of paraphrasing things to save space. It’s fine for the vast majority of the time, but loses the nuance that covers the remainder.
I saw your post over on BGG about that too. That looks like just a side effect of paraphrasing things to save space. It’s fine for the vast majority of the time, but loses the nuance that covers the remainder.
I’ve looked through the Winning the Game section of the Complete Game rules for all the sets and cannot find an “eliminated players” endgame condition. Was it specifically added to The Pirate Code back in the day in order to prevent “simulation” players who wreck an opponent and then “get the rest of the gold”?
I checked the older versions of the Code that you’ve uploaded to BGG but found no text differences relevant to this topic. Wondering if it originated in an older FAQ or a specific Multiplayer Rules document perhaps. For example, where does the current Code ruling come from? And if it originates from before any of the sets came out, why didn’t it make it into the Complete Game rules for that set and all afterwards? (which are biased towards 1v1 games, but the immediate vs. start of turn timing matters regardless of player count)
The reason I’m so curious is because I’ve been playing by the “immediate” version for years now, and want to know why that’s wrong/where it came from. The Combined Set Rules are great but this is a considerably important discrepancy (anything in the Endgame rules is a big deal), especially since it has probably affected the win/loss outcome of at least a few games I’ve been involved in. (assuming of course)
I checked the older versions of the Code that you’ve uploaded to BGG but found no text differences relevant to this topic. Wondering if it originated in an older FAQ or a specific Multiplayer Rules document perhaps. For example, where does the current Code ruling come from? And if it originates from before any of the sets came out, why didn’t it make it into the Complete Game rules for that set and all afterwards? (which are biased towards 1v1 games, but the immediate vs. start of turn timing matters regardless of player count)
Almost all of the additional endgame rules beyond the “more than half” thing were built out of old tournament rules and rulings, where they needed more defined ways on how to handle games with multiple players, play styles that didn’t focus on getting the most gold, and all sorts of other odd edge cases that came up.
Ending the game when enough players had been wiped out was added so there wouldn’t be situations where some players who were technically still part of a game would be stuck waiting for the others to finish collecting treasure.
Ending it quickly (the next turn) after enough players were out was intended to address situations where one player would ignore treasure entirely and would instead build a fleet designed solely for attacking (in the days before action limits of any kind, often it was often just a single, massive, multiple-action warship like the Titan or Harbinger), under the originally-legal assumption that all gold in play would become theirs by default when there was no opposition left. Other players without a similar setup wouldn’t stand a chance, and when both players were set up for that, games could come down to a matter of who went first or who risked leaving their home island first, so that ruling and other similar rulings were created to dissuade those types of tactics, at least within “normal” games.
The printed rulebooks never really kept up partly because they were intentionally kept simpler for the more casual players who might pick up a few packs to try out the game. Also, and maybe even more significantly, there always seemed to be a large disconnect between whoever was editing the rulebook, the designers, and the tournament rules. That issue continued right up to the very end – just look at how long it took to finally get the action limit included in the actual rulebook.
As far as the “immediately” versus “start of turn” issue, as far as I know the official timing has always been the start of a turn. I can see where the distinction would matter, in a scenario where a player had ships in scoring position but used one of their first actions to knock out an opponent’s last ship. Delaying the endgame until the next player’s turn means they don’t have to be super careful about the precise timing of when they make that last attack, and it also covers an edge case where the “eliminated” opponent might still have a facedown Shipwright or a recruiter that could bring one in.
For spying abilities (such as “Once per turn, this ship may look at one face-down cargo on any ship”), is it every player turn or just on that player’s active turn? (same wording as Canceller so players voted to have it apply to every player turn in last night’s 6 player game)
If a native canoe gets stuck in a sargasso sea, is it stuck forever because it cannot roll higher than a 6 or not stuck at all because the sargasso sea rules refer to masts which the canoes don’t have?
For spying abilities (such as “Once per turn, this ship may look at one face-down cargo on any ship”), is it every player turn or just on that player’s active turn? (same wording as Canceller so players voted to have it apply to every player turn in last night’s 6 player game)
As long as it doesn’t require or generate an action, you can use that on every player’s turn.
If a native canoe gets stuck in a sargasso sea, is it stuck forever because it cannot roll higher than a 6 or not stuck at all because the sargasso sea rules refer to masts which the canoes don’t have?
A canoe is treated as a ship with zero masts, so if it touches a sargasso sea, it’s going to have a bad time.
If a crew such as Commodore Matthew Perry (American 0LR +5) is on a shipwreck, I assume that only American ships could load him because he can’t be assigned to ships of other nationalities? If so and it was not the original owner, would it be considered a captured crew or just a free crew?
If a crew such as Commodore Matthew Perry (American 0LR +5) is on a shipwreck, I assume that only American ships could load him because he can’t be assigned to ships of other nationalities? If so and it was not the original owner, would it be considered a captured crew or just a free crew?
If anyone but the original owner picked him up, Ransom would kick in and he could be unloaded at their home for gold.
If the original owner wanted to pick him up, they’d need a ship that could legally carry him.
Can you tow a tangled derelict out of a sargasso sea?
Can a ship shoot after freeing itself from a sargasso sea? (by extension, is “its action for the turn” a move action?)
Does Parley last for the duration of the attacker’s turn or until the owner of Parley starts their turn? (or a whole round)
Does a roll of 5 with the Fear keyword affect abilities for just the Fear owner’s turn, or the whole round?
Can you tow a tangled derelict out of a sargasso sea?
No, it would have to be repaired first.
You could also use one of the abilities that move other ships, if it’s pushed completely clear of the terrain.
Can a ship shoot after freeing itself from a sargasso sea? (by extension, is “its action for the turn” a move action?)
Not on the same turn, unless it had an extra action available. It uses the ship’s standard action for the turn, but is not specifically a move action.
Does Parley last for the duration of the attacker’s turn or until the owner of Parley starts their turn? (or a whole round)
It’s only for the duration of the current turn, not the round. In a multiplayer game, the ship with Parley would have to use it on each opposing player individually to avoid being attacked.
Does a roll of 5 with the Fear keyword affect abilities for just the Fear owner’s turn, or the whole round?
The 5 result applies only to the current player’s turn, so it’ll shut defensive abilities and continuously active effects like point reducers, but won’t do anything to own-turn abilities like a captain, a helmsman, or an ability generator.
How does “This ship may dock at an enemy home island and load one treasure. If able, she must leave on your next turn.” work? Do you get to choose the treasure you take or is it random?
Also when trying to find an answer in the FAQ I came across the section for “Multiplayer”, which has among its exceptions from the regular 2-player rules that “Treasure is not revealed when unloaded at a home island.” This implies that you are supposed to reveal unloaded treasure in a 2-player game, which seemed odd to me as this isn’t actually mentioned anywhere in the rules. The rules just state that all treasure must be unloaded when you dock at your home island.
I’ve been playing that the treasure always stays hidden as it’s hidden when on the ship so it felt logical that it remained hidden when unloaded. Why is it the case that it should be revealed?
Going back to my original question, it would seem the answer would be that you do get to choose as you’d be able to see the treasure anyway. Would this then also mean that in a multiplayer game you would get to look at all of your opponent’s treasure to then choose which one you want to steal?
If you use Hidden Cove to fling a ship to a Mysterious Island, can you immediately roll for that Island’s effects? If you can, can the target ship be given a move action to move away, re-dock and roll for effects again?
How does “This ship may dock at an enemy home island and load one treasure. If able, she must leave on your next turn.” work? Do you get to choose the treasure you take or is it random?
The player losing the treasure gets to pick the specific one you steal, so you’re unlikely to get something highly valuable unless that’s all they have. (The best time to raid is often right after their first ship returns home. Or, just make multiple raids.)
Also when trying to find an answer in the FAQ I came across the section for “Multiplayer”, which has among its exceptions from the regular 2-player rules that “Treasure is not revealed when unloaded at a home island.” This implies that you are supposed to reveal unloaded treasure in a 2-player game, which seemed odd to me as this isn’t actually mentioned anywhere in the rules. The rules just state that all treasure must be unloaded when you dock at your home island.
I’ve been playing that the treasure always stays hidden as it’s hidden when on the ship so it felt logical that it remained hidden when unloaded. Why is it the case that it should be revealed?
The rule to reveal treasure immediately is carried over from the illustrated rules, and ties into the “more than half” rule for ending the game. It’s not exactly the best way to handle the endgame, so feel free to continue ignoring those rules and keep using the multiplayer rules for everything instead.
If you use Hidden Cove to fling a ship to a Mysterious Island, can you immediately roll for that Island’s effects? If you can, can the target ship be given a move action to move away, re-dock and roll for effects again?
Hidden Cove docks the ship, so you do have to roll for the island effect immediately. If you used your action(s) to move and redock at the same island during that same turn, you have to roll again, possibly getting additional or doubled-up effects.
Ah yes, the “turn them over – they’re yours!”
Thanks for the clarifications, I’ve always played that a player reveals when they have more than half the gold at their island.
Does a forfeit affect existing gold scores? For example, if a player forfeits, does their gold count, or does it automatically become 0? (asking partly since someone could have an “emergency” and clear their fleet out and leave the venue, at which point they can’t claim to win just because they have more gold at the time)
Does a forfeit affect existing gold scores? For example, if a player forfeits, does their gold count, or does it automatically become 0? (asking partly since someone could have an “emergency” and clear their fleet out and leave the venue, at which point they can’t claim to win just because they have more gold at the time)
That’s going to be up to the group or whoever is running the event.
It can be worth noting how much gold they had when they had to leave just for the sake of posterity, but if it’s being treated as a forfeit, I wouldn’t give them credit for winning even if they did end up with the most gold.
If some sort of running total is being tracked from game-to-game, there’s also value in recording how much they had up to the point they had to leave. In a case like that, I think it would be better for them to show how much they had to an outside party or someone running the event before leaving, without revealing it to the other players until the rest of the game was finished.
Home island raiders throw a wrench in the works for any longer-term tracking, because technically the forfeiting player’s total could go down before the game ended, but the fact that they’re leaving early kind of assumes their final total would have ended up higher had they finished completely. How to handle disputes about that would be up to the group or the event runners too.
Is terrain applied to docking location after Message in a Bottle is triggered? (I assume it would be on a case by case basis whether or not the terrain rules say “touches” vs. “moves over”)
Is PotC Dead Man’s Chest automatically unloaded to an HI if you are stating not to use it for any gold? (ex: to keep it on your ship and use it at a later time, or it must be unloaded for 0 gold)
Are outriggers considered part of the bow for movement/etc purposes? (Catamarans/canoes/etc)
Can you trigger the Mines UT when a ship already within S starts moving? (regardless of which direction it is going, such as away from the ship with Mines)
Can a ship still use S-Board if Mines causes it to become derelict? Can the same ship still shoot before that last cannon gets eliminated by Mines? For clarity, I assume the wording in the UT “end of her move” means her move action, not move segment?
Do you skip an eliminated player’s turn with Altar of the Loa if all they have left in play is a fort?
Can native canoes redock at a wild island that was S-explored on the first turn of a game to take gold from it as a free action? (I assume yes because they’re given move actions, not explore actions)
If the below theoretically happened: is the flotilla’s movement (straight ahead with the St. Joan) blocked by the tentacle? (knowing that the monster cannot pin the flotilla)
Is terrain applied to docking location after Message in a Bottle is triggered? (I assume it would be on a case by case basis whether or not the terrain rules say “touches” vs. “moves over”)
Message in a Bottle is meant to just dock the ship at the island, and not potentially act as another Lost, so the ship should be placed at the island in way so that it doesn’t touch terrain if at all possible. Following the standard placement rules for terrain that should be possible the vast majority of the time. In the rare case you can’t place the ship without it touching terrain (perhaps due to house rules allowing terrain to surround an island or something), ignore the terrain while docking the ship, but then apply it normally as soon as the ship tries to move away.
Is PotC Dead Man’s Chest automatically unloaded to an HI if you are stating not to use it for any gold? (ex: to keep it on your ship and use it at a later time, or it must be unloaded for 0 gold)
Dead Man’s Chest must be unloaded when you dock at home – that part isn’t optional. You only get to decide how many crew to eliminate, and you can choose zero.
Are outriggers considered part of the bow for movement/etc purposes? (Catamarans/canoes/etc)
No.
Can you trigger the Mines UT when a ship already within S starts moving? (regardless of which direction it is going, such as away from the ship with Mines)
You can trigger it as long as some part of the ship is within S during its move action, even if the ship moves away.
Can a ship still use S-Board if Mines causes it to become derelict? Can the same ship still shoot before that last cannon gets eliminated by Mines? For clarity, I assume the wording in the UT “end of her move” means her move action, not move segment?
The Mines damage applies at the end of the move, which puts it after any other abilities and effects that happen as part of the move action, including S-boarding and shooting with a Captain.
Do you skip an eliminated player’s turn with Altar of the Loa if all they have left in play is a fort?
No. That player will count toward the endgame condition because they can’t give move actions, but assuming there are enough other players still going to prevent that, the player with the fort still gets their turn in the normal sequence. If there’s nothing within range of the fort to attack they won’t have anything to do, but that’s not enough to skip them entirely.
Can native canoes redock at a wild island that was S-explored on the first turn of a game to take gold from it as a free action? (I assume yes because they’re given move actions, not explore actions)
Yes. The same applies to a ship that used Hidden Cove too.
If the below theoretically happened: is the flotilla’s movement (straight ahead with the St. Joan) blocked by the tentacle? (knowing that the monster cannot pin the flotilla)
Tentacles (and masts) will not prevent or stop movement if the ship is not pinned.
If it was allowed for usage in a game, could the Sleigh start the game with Unique Treasure aboard her?
This ship cannot be shot at, and she cannot sink. She begins the game fully loaded with treasure from her controller’s collection. Her base move becomes 6L when she has no available cargo capacity.
If you can, could you include Abandoned crew in that mix to give the Sleigh more crew?
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